"Ghosting" on vinyl?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by metalbob, Nov 25, 2002.

  1. metalbob

    metalbob Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Does anyone else notice some kind of "ghosting" on vinyl where you can hear the song faintly between tracks for a few seconds BEFORE the song begins? For example, it would be a few seconds of the intro very faint in the background and then the intro would actually kick in. I have noticed this on several records.

    I have no idea what terminology to use to describe this. It would be like putting reverse reverb on a song or vocal, similar to the breakdown in "Whole Lotta Love" where you can hear the reverb for Robert Plant's vocal before he even sings.
     
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  2. SVL

    SVL New Member

    Location:
    Kiev, Ukraine
    It may be present on both vinyl and CD. Sounds like print-through from adjacent parts of the tape.
     
  3. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host

    Pre-echo. Caused by faulty mastering usually...Not to be confused with "print through" on tape.

    We have an "expand" button on the mastering console that we push to enlarge the groove a bit right before every song starts and during quiet spots that get loud quickly. We know they are coming by watching the preview head meters of course. This technique prevents pre-echo in most cases.
     
  4. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-)

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
    I was about to say "print-through!", but while looking for a source, and I found this:

    So much for the example I've used to explain print-through for so long!
     
  5. sgraham

    sgraham New Member

    Location:
    Michigan
    I find that hard to believe about Glyn Johns!
     
  6. SVL

    SVL New Member

    Location:
    Kiev, Ukraine
    Well, for something done on purpose, it sounds a whole lot like an error :D.

    Was listening to Queen - A Day at the Races last night, and a similar effect (defect?) can be heard right before the opening of "Somebody to Love". Now that must be print-through ;)

    I still have to find a good-sounding version of A Day at the Races, BTW. Most that I have heard are no good, either on vinyl or CD, and that is a shame, because I have always liked the album.
     
  7. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff

    Location:
    NY
    Is any kind of "pre-echo" attributal to bad tracking on the turntable end?

    Donald
     
  8. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    Possibly, but it sounds like a problem with the cutting process. You could play a lot of 45's before coming across one that has that 'echo' before the regular volume of an intro kicks in...and on some pressings with very tight grooves where a lot of minutes are involved, you get that, too, yet when the music was mastered for CD, no such problems, because nothing is squeezed. I always heard cross-talk on two Lp's in particular: the Firesign Theatre's HOW CAN YOU BE IN TWO PLACES AT ONCE, and Miles' BITCHES BREW(stereo version). Nothing like that can be heard on the CDs...

    I also heard the same sort of thing on the earliest RCA CD masterings, which were just atrocious...JOHN DENVER'S GREATEST HITS and the Airplane's SURREALISTIC PILLOW were ridiculous, as was the first Time-Life TREASURY OF CHRISTMAS. Nth generation tape, and you could hear the echo between all the tracks, very distracting. With these, just lousy tape sources, period...

    There are also some tape forumations that, in time, cause this phenomenon. Memorex tape was notorious in the '70s & 80s for that type of 'bleedthrough' and I still have some comps made for the car stereo to prove it...

    ED:cool:
     
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  9. tim_neely

    tim_neely Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Central VA
    The worst case of "pre-echo," "post-echo" and all other kinds of echo that don't appear on the master tape seems to be on Columbia styrene 45s, especially from the 1980s.

    I have two copies of "Jersey Girl" by Bruce Springsteen, the rare B-side version with the spoken intro, and they have that "ghosting" all the way through Bruce's intro and also into the first verse of the song. It makes it impossible for me to make a good recording of the record. And it wouldn't surprise me if most (or all) copies with the spoken intro are like that.

    The common denominator seems to be a groove that was cut too close together. In the case of "Jersey Girl," the record is so long that it was probably tough to cut to 45 in the first place. But there was no excuse for "Eternal Flame" by the Bangles... I finally started checking trail-off wax suffix numbers to make sure that the new copy I was getting was from a different pressing from the defective ones. I think 1As were OK but 1Cs had a terrible pre-echo problem.
     
  10. reechie

    reechie Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Baltimore
    Most of my old orange label Capitol Beatles albums used to do this, especially The Beatles' Second Album.
     
  11. -Ben

    -Ben Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington DC Area
    I don't know what the consensus about this one is, but I hated all those orange Capitols. IMHO, the purple Capitols from 1978 to 1982 were much better.
    BC
     
  12. metalbob

    metalbob Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Not freak anyone out, but I was inspired to write this after doing needle drops on the Beatles UK Blue Box. I have noticed it on a few others though. I never notice any bleeding during the tracks, even the quiet parts.

    BOB
     
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  13. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff

    Location:
    NY
    Hey Ed,
    how about the "LP flip-side backwards echo" on HCYBITPAOWYNAAA?:D You know, (I can't quote the LP verbatem like I used to be able to) when they are trying to figure out where they are in the story, so they play a few seconds of dialog from the same point on the other side of the record! (I think that it is the "You ain't got no friends on the left - you're right!" march)

    Donald
     
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  14. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    You know, that's absolutely brilliant. My brothers and I adore that album...but while most folks can get into the Nick Danger side, the other one they tend to find a real challenge, understandably so...but that backwards bit they pull at exactly the same time as the other side is a great left-field stroke of genius. Not only that, on the ND side they made reference to "I Am The Walrus"("goo goo goo job...Gusundheit!")and the backwards-tape thing was a Beatles ref. as well. The Firesides were really great in their prime, weren't they? All hail Marx...Lennon...:D :D :D

    ED:cool:
     
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  15. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host

    When disc mastering, one actually has to PUSH the Expand button on the console. It's sort of like Homer Simpson's job at the nuclear power plant; if you're eating a jelly donut or snoozing, no one is going to push it for you....:rolleyes:
     
  16. tamman

    tamman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Minnesota
    Interesting post, I have heard this effect on my MFSL Creedence Clearwater Revival "Cosmo's Factory". It is most apparent on "Up Around the Bend" and "My Baby Left Me". Also, on side one, disc 2 of "Elvis 30 #1 Hits" this phenomenon appears.
     
  17. nashreed

    nashreed New Member

    Location:
    Tulsa, OK

    :agree:

    I had that Springsteen single, and remember others as well; most notably Billy Joel's "An Innocent Man" 45. That is a rather long song and that pre-echo seemed almost as loud as the actual song. eep!!

    This is what I was talking about on the fades of several songs on the new George Harrison CD! Does nobody else hear it? My copy is defective?? Help!! :help:

    James
     
  18. reechie

    reechie Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Baltimore
    Hmmm, I've never heard of that happening on a CD before. I'd think for that to occur, it'd have to be print-through from the master tape, not some flaw with the CD, wouldn't it?

    I didn't notice anything like that while playing my copy of Brainwashed, maybe tonight I'll try to remember to give it a headphone listen and see if I come up with anything similar.
     
  19. tim_neely

    tim_neely Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Central VA
    Yeah... I may have lucked out on my copy of "An Innocent Man"; I don't remember it there, but I can sure understand how it could happen. It seemed to happen most often when songs have something resembling a dynamic range. You don't hear the "ghosts" in the loud parts of these songs, but the very soft parts .... eep!!
     
  20. -Ben

    -Ben Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington DC Area
    IMO, "pre-echo" happens quite a lot and I'm sure Steve is right about being a mistake (i.e. it doesn't have to happen).
    Of course it also depends on how loud is the next groove coming up compared to the quiet one you are listening.

    BC
     
  21. CT Dave

    CT Dave Forum Resident

    Location:
    Connecticut
    I have the remastered version of Billy Joel's "An Innocent Man" on CD,and while lisening through headphones, you can hear print-through that apparently is on the master tape. As one song fades out, you can faintly hear the beginning of the next song. This is cannot be heard on my original copy of this CD from 1984. There is also what sounds like a slight drag,or garble, that can be heard at the very beginning of a few songs on the remastered CD. I suspect this may be caused by damage to the master tape where the individual songs were spliced together.
     
  22. Joe Koz

    Joe Koz Prodigal Bone Brotherâ„¢ In Memoriam

    Location:
    Chicagoland
    The Dave Clark Five on the old Epic re-channeled lp's were the worst with print through.
     
  23. Pat

    Pat Forum Detective

    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    Steve,

    What are the problems that we hear on songs like Book Of Love - The Monotones (that echoey doubling of the thump) and also Groovy Kind Of Love - Wayne Fontana & The Mindbenders (that "shhu-shuu-shu-shuh" sound)?

    Is this the same phenomenon as we're discussing or just bad copy tapes? It's not on ALL versions of said songs...but many of the releases have these errors.
     
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host

    Pat,

    Wayne Fontana had left the Mindbenders by the time of "Groovy". That is such a dreadful recording, I haven't played it since the 1960's.

    As for the Monotones record, I dunno. It sounded pretty good on the MCA comp I did, right?
     
  25. audiodrome

    audiodrome Senior Member

    Location:
    North Of Boston
    Re: Re: "ghosting" on vinyl?

    Print-through on tape caused by storing the tapes heads out is very different. You actually hear the song "start" in the background before it starts, not backwards though. The Jimmy Page trick is a great one but I'm sure that he didn't invent it. I've heard examples of "preverb" on earlier pyschedelic tunes - "Beeside" by Tintern Abbey comes to mind (1967).
     

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