Good turntable for playing 78s?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by bjlefebvre, Dec 29, 2021.

  1. Daedalus

    Daedalus I haven't heard it all.....

    Thorens with 3 speeds.
     
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  2. bjlefebvre

    bjlefebvre Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Washington DC-ish
    Yeah, I'm thinking the same re: the Lounge. I'm thinking maybe that Parks Puffin that allows EQ changes. But still looking around.

    Not sure on total budget. This is meant as a secondary system, so trying to do this shall we say thriftily.
     
  3. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Newer models not ideal for 78 RPM work. Too low mass, too light tracking. Remember, 3 grams is ultralight tracking for a 78 RPM disc, and variable pitch control is a desirable feature to have on a 78 RPM machine.
     
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  4. drh

    drh Talking Machine

    As to a preamp, I have been very happy with my Graham Slee Jazz Club, which has flexibility to handle most of what you might want to throw at it from the electrical era; the replacement model, the Revelation, has the same settings but different circuitry (never heard one, can't comment on whether it's "better" or just "different"). The company maintains a "try at home without obligation" loaner program if you'd care to explore its offerings. Ordering direct from Graham Slee usually is cheaper than going through a US distributor, but it will take a bit longer. At least, it did before the pandemic. For all I know, it may take a *lot* longer now. Something to look into.

    For acoustic records, I like the Graham Slee Accession for reasons that I outlined at length here: [Review] Graham Slee Accession phono stage One member of the Talking Machine Forum disputed the fundamentals underlying the preamp and my conclusions, and he offered up response graphs to support his point; I don't know how he derived them, and I can only say that my ears continue to go with what I wrote. You may draw your own conclusions.

    Unfortunately, as far as I know Graham Slee doesn't offer a preamp that combines the features of the Accession and Jazz Club/Revelation. Any, by the by, is also fine for LPs; they aren't limited to 78s by any means.
     
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  5. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    The Technics 1200 MK7 would be a good choice. More importantly it is out of stock everywhere right now. I'll take a guess that it won't be restocked until March and will still be in tight supply.

    Some other turntables to consider, all lower price than the 1200 MK7, all have 78 speed, all direct drive, all have variable speed and strobe, most have quartz lock speed switch, most have adjustable tonearm height:

    Audio-Technica AT-LP120XUSB (no tonearm height adjustment, has preamp which can be switched off, has AT-VM95E cartridge)
    Audio-Technica AT-LP140XP (has AT-XP3 cartridge)
    Audio-Technica AT-LP1240-USBXP (has preamp and AT-XP5 cartridge) (for my 78 use, I have an older version of this turntable with a different brand name, super reliable in my experience)
    Pioneer DJ PLX-500 (no quartz lock) (has AT3600 cartridge, non-AT stylus for 78 is available) (not the PLX-1000 which does not have 78)
    Reloop RP-4000 mk2 (no tonearm height adjustment) (has Ortofon OM black cartridge, a 78 stylus is available)
    Reloop RP-7000 MK2 (no cartridge or headshell)


    All of these are variations on the china "Super OEM" turntable, so they look similar. All are available at Sweetwater. The Technics models have W&F spec of 0.025%, while these spec at 0.1-0.15%, very good enough for 78 and passable for 33/45.

    For the AT-VM95E and AT-XP3 and AT-XP5 cart, you can replace the original stylus with the AT-VNM95SP stylus and have a fine cart for 78, making it essentially an AT-VM95SP.
    Or the Stanton 500 - or the identical Pickering V15 - I have several of that bulletproof classic cartridge with various styli for various uses.

    The Puffin would be great. I would surely not argue with any Graham Slee, which I have not heard, except to nitpick on the way the switches are wired and displayed on the front panel.

    A budget preamp choice for 78 is the TC-778 which has a single switch of 78/RIAA. One general setting for pre-RIAA 78s (or 33s), which is pretty close to all the different non-RIAA EQs for general listening, and a good value for that.
    TCC TC-778 eBay Details and Hookup


    Then preamp choices with many EQ switches for 78s in the $1000-3000 range are available.

    A mono switch will be very useful if the preamp doesn't have one.

    [Edited out a mistake]
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  6. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor.

    It has a helical VTA tower...
    Have you ever seen one at all?
     
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  7. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Thank you. Edited.
     
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  8. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Not in person, I'm not looking to buy one, looking at its pics I missed it.
     
  9. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor.

    Funny when people comment on things they’ve never seen...
     
  10. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    ok ok I missed it on this one, I've seen and operated a bazillion or so 1200s in person...... :) [accuracy check - not literally a bazillion]
     
  11. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor.

    Well, the MK7 is quite different from the legacy models, so it’s worth a look.
    Decent deck overall, just the popup light feels flimsy and the bottom a bit hollow (not made of rubber, but plastic instead).
    Still quite solid though.
    Tonearm bearing are supposed to be better according to specs (lower friction than those legacy 1200s and the Hanpin SuperOEMs you mentioned).
     
  12. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    There is no such thing as a perfect turntable. Not yet anyway.
    The Technics SP-10R comes close but my biggest gripe with it has to be the low range of pitch control. It’s only +/- 16%. An archivist is going to want some more flexibility than that. Why can much cheaper turntables do 50?

    I recently transferred a Wilcox-Gay Recordio disc from 1941 for someone, it’s a laminated cardboard disc, far too warped and degraded to play back at 78rpm as originally intended, not to mention the wrinkles and flaking on the top layer... No issue. My table can drop to -50%. Transfer at 48khz, then adjust the playback sampling rate to 96khz. Easy!

    Only these Hanpin SuperOEMs seem to offer such a wide range of pitch control. Yet they’re lacking in a lot of other ways. Dropping $10K on a Technics doesn’t get you an improvement in every aspect.
     
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  13. DaleClark

    DaleClark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    I would go a new Technics with pitch control. I have the OM78 stylus for my Concorde that tracks really well and it was only $75. With the Concord or OM (possibly 2m I have not checked) you could swap the stylus quickly and play normal records as well if you wish.
     
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  14. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Couldn’t you achieve -50% of 78 rpm with one of the other speeds and the adjustment range available?
     
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  15. drh

    drh Talking Machine

    Incidentally, not to open another can of worms, but note that just because you've found the right turntable doesn't necessarily mean you're done--you may also need to consider the arm. If it's one of the massy-markety ones that come with the arm built in, then that's that, but if it takes a component arm, well....

    For what it's worth, my tables in regular use (one system for LPs and electrical 78s, the other for acoustic 78s--see my comments regarding preamps, supra) are both fitted with classic SME arms, which have worked well for me with my high-compliance Shure cartridges. Not sure if my Pickerings (XV15/625E) count as "high compliance," but they've worked well there, too. I have a Technics SP-15 that would be more in service except that I hate its Syntec arm. One day, I plan to replace that and get a the custom speed controller mentioned in one of my articles, but that's a long time and many, many $$$ in the future.

    Speaking of cartridges, I think mention was made above of Pickering and custom styli. Note that if you want to buy the most readily available set, you will need a Pickering from the V15 series, not from the XV15 series. The latter can be made to work but have a form factor incompatible with the unmodified stylus blocks. Yet again shamelessly linking to myself, see here: [TNT-Audio Vintage column] Review of the Rek-o-Kut Archival Elliptical Stylus Kit for Stanton 500 and Pickering V-15 To what's there, I can add that having now lived with them for a while longer, I'm fully happy with my set of these styli. They're a good value and give good performance.
     
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  16. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    That in particular could be managed, but -50% down from 33rpm would also be a valuable feature for transcribing damaged discs or anything cut at 16 2/3


    +16% from 78rpm also is barely enough to play some acoustic era discs cut around 90RPM, so it would be handy to have a higher upper range as well.

    A wider range of pitch variation is a sad omission for a turntable that will surely find professional use in dealing with some off-kilter discs
     
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  17. drh

    drh Talking Machine

    I expect the omission, not unique to this turntable, comes from a lack of understanding--probably reflecting a lack of interest--on the part of mfrs. and reviewers, with the latter consequently failing to hold the formers' feet to the fire. As one example, I recently read a review in which the author wrote (I paraphrase from memory), "It includes 78 RPM. That speed ran a little slow, but that's OK, because 78s were often recorded off speed anyhow." :eek: :rolleyes: :realmad:

    One thing that consistently puzzles me: expensive turntables that include a 78 speed but come packaged with moving coil cartridges mounted on non-interchangeable headshells. But that's a topic for another thread.

    Apologies to the OP; no wish to cause thread drift....
     
  18. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    Wow this got very technical quickly! I had no idea about the pitch variances within the 78 era etc. I learn how much I don't know here! But I'm team Dual, 1019, 1219, 1229.
     
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  19. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    That is a silly comment, for sure.

    I think they assume you will add a separate arm for 78 playback, at that level.

    Nah, I think we’re still on topic.
     
  20. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I didn’t know it was that varied, either, and I’m not sure how I’d even decide the amount of pitch correction needed unless it is a recording with which I am very familiar on other formats or something.
     
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  21. JP

    JP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookfield, CT
    Still ubiquitous with archivists aren’t they? And there are people who know how to get a wide range of speed adjustability out of them.
     
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  22. drh

    drh Talking Machine

    The way I do it is to compare the record with another of the same thing with known pitch--but then, I'm a classical collector, so comparative recordings usually are fairly easy to find (leaving aside the issue that "concert pitch" has not always been the same and even the room temperature in poorly climate-controlled recording venues could have an effect). A friend with more formal musical training likes to consult a score and adjust with a pitch pipe. That latter approach would probably be the best for popular songs. I did something a bit similar, relying on a piano rather than a pitch pipe, for that "score says this, speeds yield that" example I cited upthread. My music-reading skills are rudimentary but just about good enough for that. I still find comparing by ear a lot easier, however.
     
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  23. bjlefebvre

    bjlefebvre Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Washington DC-ish
    Nah, it's all good. Enjoying the comments.

    Still mulling, but right now leaning toward Team Technics. I'm right now doing cost/benefit analysis for buying a used Technic and getting a KAB mod or buying a new Mk7. Of course, not much choice at all buying new at the moment. Otherwise the second choice would be Dual, then maybe a Pioneer if for whatever reason it comes down to that. KAB says on one page they can do a Mk2 or Mk5, but then on another page throw in the Mk3 as well. I think a call might be in order to verify before I go any further down that route.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
  24. Aftermath

    Aftermath Senior Member

    Not sure if this matters to you, but one thing to consider is the Mk2, Mk3, and Mk5 only have a +/- 8% adjustable range on the pitch control slider, whereas the newer models such as the Mk7 and GR are switchable to twice that, or +/- 16%. The old M5Gs are also switchable +/-16% though.
     
  25. rfs

    rfs Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lansing, MI USA
    Thanks, I guess I will stay with my Elac Miracord 50H.
     
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