Grado or Denon Carts?

I'll take a Denon every time. Of course I haven't heard a Grade since the 90s. Grado always sound fuzzy, warm and rolled off back then. They were the "analog lovers choice" back in the day. Denon has just been making kick butt cartridges forever. The DL110 and the 103 are great cartridges, if your system can handle them

 

Thank you, and yes, it most certainly does sound great! You can get a sense of what it sounds like by downloading the needledrop sample I provided up-thread.

 

So how could I, according to you, be a great service? By agreeing with everything you say? By not telling the truth about the inferiority of certain products according to my vast experience? I don't think so. What I'm doing is the opposite of a disservice. I'm willing to go against the grain of popular opinion even if it means being personally attacked by people who selectively sift through my posts (while missing the fact that I already agreed to tone down my comments about Grados and also the fact that I said Denons cartridges are not my preference either) and creatively twist the scenario around to conform to a particular agenda. Again, I can only wonder if the reason you find my commentary so upsetting and so vehemently defend your favorite cartridge in the manner that you have, is that you're worried that I may be onto something. So now it must be my amplifier's fault or my speakers or my room or whatever? Then you must have missed the part where I said I've tried Grados in multiple systems with many different tonearms, etc. Anyway, this is a dead argument. You or anyone else is welcome to listen to whatever they want, regardless of what I think or say. But since you asked, here is the beautiful Stereophile measurement of the lovely little Audioengine A2 desktop speakers (not my main speakers...I hope you realize). In addition to measuring very nicely, the drivers are of excellent quality and do not produce significant artifacts in the average listening environment which may not show up under laboratory scrutiny. The Audioengines do have a very slight grain to them as they are, after all, cheap speakers with an even cheaper amplifier, but since I am accustomed to hearing Grado cartridges, I was easily able to pick out the problems I heard in the sound clip that was provided by action pact and attribute them to the cartridge as I've heard the same thing on multiple pairs of speakers in the past. As you can see by the graph, if anything, the Audioengines would make a Grado sound more like Grado allegedly sounds, which I would absolutely welcome, but unfortunately I cannot live with the lack of refinement in these cartridges. You can also see that the A2 speakers do not accentuate highs, therefore invalidating what I assume is your suggestion that my desktop speakers may have been the sole source of the splashiness and grain I've referred to in both clips. There was a period during which I evaluated a series of Grado cartridges on my reference quality, fully restored Quad ESL 57 loudspeakers. Assuming you've heard a properly restored pair of Quads, if you'd care to argue that there is any speaker on the planet with a more pure or revealing mid-band, don't bother. You'd be outgunned.



PS...and just so you know, your "take a swim in the vocals" comment has been eating away at my mind, making me want to try a Grado Gold again just in case I might have missed something. You never know!

 

The broad brush should only be applied when discussing the particular cartridges delineated - the Denon DL-S1 doesn't sound like the 103, nor does the TOTL Grado sound like the Gold model. There's a very big jump between those cartridges, and should be, for the price differential.

 

How many cartridges have you heard from the Grado line? Give me the list. Then tell me again what you've said here. Because all of the Grados, at least up to the Sonata, have the same or similar problems.

 

I have the Grado Statement Master 1, and while it's a warm cartridge, it doesn't sound like it has the mid-hump that you've been writing about. I would love to try a Denon, but I'm happy enough with this cartridge that I don't feel like spending the money.

I can only contrast it with an Ortofon 2M Black that I have. That cartridge has some nice qualities, with just a tad more upper detail (the shibata?). However, I find it to be a more fatiguing cartridge, and lesser in terms of instrument definition and bass.

I traded a Platinum to get a Master. I liked the Platinum quite a bit, but I do think it emphasized mids (which I liked - voices were great). Not as much detail - perhaps the conical diamond.

 

Platinum doesn't have a conical diamond. It's elliptical.

 

I was just going back to correct the post.

You're right - it's the brass bushing that throws me off when I put it under a microscope.

 

I wish it was a conical. That would be interesting.

 

I wonder how you would like the old Grado FC+ from the '70s? I have one here from '78 (with its original, low-mileage conical stylus) and it has the same attributes that I like in other Grados from the era. Namely, it has a wonderfully deeeep, layered soundstage and a sort of smokey character, like you're in an intimate club 'round midnight.

Now that I'm thinking about it, maybe I should mount it on the Jelco/TD-124 and give it a listen again...

 

Loan it to me so I can try it. I'll loan you something cool in exchange. Tried one of these before, but the stylus wasn't in great shape.

 

I might be open to that... Lemme first play around with it for a while.

I just mounted it on the TD-124 and have a '60s Claudine Longet album on A&M spinning right now. It sounds really great... thick mid-band, phat bass, smooth top-end, and that '70s Grado 3D soundstage. Wow!

 

Dang. I want to hear it. Will you post a sound clip using that same record you used with the other two for comparison?

 

You betcha.

 

Update: just plugged in a tan Grado MC+(stereo version) that I've had for a long time and listened. A 26 year old female audiophile friend of mine was with me (fresh ears...I'm 43) and we were doing cartridge comparisons. She thought the Grado was "hard sounding" and not very impressive while also stating that "it has a way of highlighting the whole song" as opposed to calling attention to specific features. I remarked that tracking was poor, was hearing smearing of 's' sounds and a general stiffness, YET the saxophone was gorgeous. Female vocal was nice and laid back, though lacking in refinement. More surface noise than with some of the other carts, but I also said "for some reason, this cartridge has a way of drawing you into the music". So once again, nothing special, but also definitely has some fairy dust. I'm intrigued again. But I've been here before: if I can just find the right Grado, I'll be happy. Then I can never find the right Grado. Same cycle.

 

I checked my stash. I have an FC+ body here. No stylus. Doesn't really do me any good. May try plugging the MC+ stylus I have into the body just to see what happens.

 

All of 2, the winner being, by far, the Statement1 (and I see they've moved on to the Statement2). The problem is, of course, one of cost. Grado can surely address the issues you're hearing...and that requires more money from them. I'm not willing to spend that kind of money on a cartridge, and I would wager that you're not interested in doing so, either. At the cost range of the lower-range of Grado cartridges, I don't doubt at that one could find a better alternative.

 

A few Grados here also and a modded 103r. The denon get's more attention.


This is an MI+/MZ combo


And the Denon

 

Wow - that AR is lovely. What kind of arm is that?

 

Mission 774LC

 

Having owned the 8MR back in the day as well as the Reference Platinum, Sonata, Master, and now a Reference 1, I would recommend you start at least with the Sonata 1. Since I'm not familiar with your equipment I cannot get a feel for the level of resolution you have, nor would I feel comfortable with an outright recommendation. However based on your observations a Sonata is the lowest I would go.

For example, I was perfectly happy with the Master for many years until upgrading my equipment and moved up to the Ref 1, which I am very happy with. The higher the resolution the higher up you will need to go.

In my old system the Platinum was great and with my present turntable the dirty or tizzy top end was noticeable, when I tried the Sonata that went away and I never noticed that issue again, but continued system upgrades showed more and more coloration until going with the Ref 1 which is one of the best I've heard and will likely not be replaced. In my system is strikes a nice balance between musical yet neutral.

I will caution you though, VTA is everything with the Grados and most people who's systems I've heard did not have it set right and when I corrected it they were shocked how good their system/their Grado could sound. Simply setting the arm level has never done the trick in my experience. For this reason I usually try to steer someone away from the Grados unless they are very 'tweek' oriented. They are a pain to optimize-I cannot emphasize this enough. However once set, I've never had to touch it again.

You seem to like a musical sound based on your profile, so a Grado may work for you, but if an 'illuminated' soundstage is what you are after as some MCs tend to do, I would look elsewhere. Try and find a Grado dealer that can demo them for you before you buy if possible.

Hope this helps.

 

The Grados have historically been known for having a slightly tipped up treble, but I think they are more neutral now. There is something right about the sound of the Grados. If you compare the two samples of Big Joe Turner the Grado sounds meatier and everything has some mass to the sound. They are not stellar trackers and they tend to hum on Thorens tables.

The Denon was more lightweight but it had a nice liquidity and revealed inner detail. The Denon is a superior tracker. I like them both and have lived with them both at different times.

 

I have a Thorens TD 150 MKII A/B with a 100th Anniversary TP16 MKIII tonearm. Using a Grado Prestige Gold 1 cartridge, with a recently replaced (yesterday) stylus (Gold 1) after two years. I have to say I think it sounds divine on my system. Great punchy deep bass, clear mid ranges, and nice crisp high end. I started with a Grado Prestige Black (original design) and the difference between it and the Gold 1 has been tremendous. I've never tried a Denon, but everyone that's listened to my system (not very expensive) has been impressed that I get the sound I'm getting out of this little Grado Prestige Gold 1.

 

The 103 has an internal impedance of 40, hence - needs to be loaded at 400 and up. 100 is just insufficient, you're not getting its full potential.

 

I'm just following Denon's specs and like the results. What am I missing?