Grateful Dead album by album thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by jacksondownunda, May 8, 2009.

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  1. hbbfam

    hbbfam Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chandler,AZ
    DP 20 was okay, but #33 which was about a month later is amazing.
     
  2. rcdupre

    rcdupre Flying is Trying is Dying

    I used to live a couple blocks away on Leavenworth at O'Farrell in the late nineties...seen lotsa good shows there, great place! I saw Robert Hunter reading Rilke with T.C. backing (a poetry show with Michael McLure & Ray Manzareck) plus Hawkwind, Gong, Kevin Ayers, Culture, John Zorn, Jerry Jeff Walker & Ramblin' Jack Elliot, and others I can't recall...btw, Hunter S. Thompson used to work the door sometimes at the famed O'Farrell Theatre porn / stripper emporium right next door....
     
  3. Jerry

    Jerry Grateful Gort Staff

    Location:
    New England
    And don't forget that The Great American Music Hall was a club that spawned a band!

    The Great American Music Band started at a show at the Great American Music Hall with David Grisman, Richard Greene and Vassar Clements probably in early 1974. From that point onward Grisman and Greene performed a number of times using the name playing primarily instrumental music and providing a vehicle for David Grisman's compositions. Initially the group line-up, with the exception of Grisman and Greene, depended on who was available for any given show. During this period Jerry Garcia played with the group for a number of shows between May and June 1974. David Nichtern, Taj Mahal and Buell Neidlinger also played with the group during these months.
     
  4. musicalbeds

    musicalbeds Strange but not a stranger

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I had tickets for the last two shows, but my girlfriend and I gave them away, and went to her cousin's wedding instead. It wasn't a tough choice...after the catastrophe at Deer Creek and the weird vibes in St Louis..where a few Deadheads died camping when some sort of roof caved in, RIP...it wasn't a tough decision, and I haven't regretted it.
     
  5. DP 33 is one of my favourite Dick's Picks. Set 2 from the Saturday show is one of my favourite Dead sets of all time, Help>Slipknot>Drums>Samson>Slipknot>Franklin is just amazing.
     
  6. hbbfam

    hbbfam Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chandler,AZ
    I still have an unopened copy of Road Trips Vol2 No.4 (WITHOUT BONUS DISC) available if anyone is interested. Please PM me.
     
  7. jacksondownunda

    jacksondownunda Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    TERRAPIN

    In Punk/New Wave 1977, the Grateful Dead imagery of plodding reptiles given to longevity seemed very apt, and kinda cute. As with many things Grateful Dead, the imagery went a bit deeper and referred to some cultures’ ancient beliefs that the world was carried on the back of a giant tortoise (or perhaps on four elephants standing on the back of that turtle), creating earthquakes when the reptile moved. And what was THAT turtle standing on? Why, IT’S TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN!

    Robert Hunter says of writing Terrapin Station, “I was in my studio overlooking the Richmond Bay part of San Francisco Bay and I just sat down in a very inspired state of mind. It was a grey day and there may have been lightning. The water was being whipped up and the words just came out of this very visual sight. It came rather quickly and easily. I hadn’t been that inspired in years. I knew I had something special on my hands.” His inspiration filled several pages. Coincidentally, Garcia also was visited by his Muse and claims a sequence of music poured forth fully formed. “I’ve actually written from inspiration, had a song go ‘bing’! I recall that twice; ‘Terrapin Station’ and ‘Wharf Rat’. Twice in a lifetime of writing.” Not all of Hunter’s lengthy Terrapin manuscript was used; “Jerry set some of the other tunes to music but there wasn’t space enough for it on the album. At the end of it I had Venus rising out of the sea on the back of a mighty Terrapin tossing a coral fan to the beach. I anthropomorphized my images.”

    I suppose GD was never going to get into performing rock operas, but the opening segments did make for a rather grandiose and beautiful suite. Over a hypnotic riff, Hunter’s words called up Inspiration by name and out the fleeting images of a bonfire a story manifests itself, “’til things we’ve never seen seem familiar”. The band previewed much of the material on tour for months before the album came out. Though I didn’t initially catch the whole story, I remembered the heady phrases like “I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance”, “strategy was his strength, not disaster”, and “the storyteller makes no choice. His job is to shed light”. It turns out that Hunter had paraphrased the old folk song “Lady Of Carlisle” (played by New Lost City , and Hunter himself on Jack O’ Roses). Two suitors vie for the lady fair with a fan (the fan could be an instrument of concealment, a luxury, or an admirer). She makes a dangerous challenge to them for her hand. The soldier balks logically, but the sailor takes the dare and beats death. In the folk song AND Ice Nine Publishing’s lyrics, “the lady fairly leapt at him” and they live happily ever after and we move onto singing of the wonders of life on Terrapin. However, quite a few of us were blessed/cursed with mishearing the lyrics as “the lady fair laughed at him”, which I feel dropped the song into an emotional/spiritual depth and breadth not inherent in the “correct” lyrics. (Hunter says he purposely avoids printing lyrics to allow such things to occur.) The sailor has still put the premium of life itself on love (and if you could read Kris Kristofferson’s mind he’d remind you that “heroes often fail”), and beats out the soldier in the life stakes as it’s better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. That hasn’t changed in this alternate scenario. However the lady fair is no longer just a prize; she’s a thinking wildcard capable of affecting several fates. In this case the sailor may still be defined by what he held dearest, even if he no longer possesses it/her. Her fate after her decision is unknown. You decide if SHE was wise. (Like Leopold Bloom’s wife’s thoughts in the last chapter of James Joyce’s Ulysses, the possibility exists that there’s NOTHING there!) . Anyway, the song then dramatically ponders life/sense/inspiration/despair/souls’ karmic cycles (“some rise, some fall”)/mysteries in the shadow of the Moon on Terrapin. Like Eyes, Box Of Rain, and Mountains Of The Moon “the Earth will see you through this time”. “You can’t go back and you can’t stand still” seems to be paraphrased in “I can’t figure out if it’s the end or beginning, the train’s put it’s brakes on and the whistle is screaming ‘Terrapin’!” before plunging into that earth-moving monster riff that can conjure massive seismic activity, or the cosmic exponential TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN…!

    Archive.org, the officially sanctioned streamsite, has early recordings (rehearsals, demos, or very early outtakes) of the material being worked out live and in the studio in early 1977. They’re somewhat weak, but quite illuminating; http://www.archive.org/details/gd77-02-20.sbd.moreno.9470.sbeok.shnf .

    “Terrapin” has that “At A Siding” part but not yet with lyrics.

    Weir/Barlow’s spooky “Estimated Prophet” is here in it’s infancy. GD had been playing 7 beat progressions since the late ‘60’s, and Weir had played with 7/4 on “Money” and “Lazy Lightning/Supplication”. Here it is slowed to the cadence of Pink Floyd’s “Money” (also mostly 7/4, and sounding similarly lopsided), and played in a ticky-tock reggae style with Garcia playing with his latest “frap frap” guitar effect. The protagonist watches society from a distance but finds himself dancing in angelic light on the chorus. The official line is that it’s about slightly crazed DeadHeads appearing at the stagedoor, driven to get to California. Fair ‘nuff, as the huge verse/chorus contrast sounds schizophrenic or bi-polar. I’ve always heard in it a bit of the Marley/reggae themes of that period, cutely transposed to a “white” singer; Babylon and dark shuffles like “Exodus” are the “my time comin’/watch the cars below” verses, and Zion has been cleverly shifted to California. “Estimated Prophet” indeed.

    Hart’s long postponed “Fire On The Mountain” was an album contender with spare lines and verses including; “Here’s another (note?) for that kid at the door,…it’s getting much harder to please that crowd… Fire on the mountain, it's coming around, it never goes up and it never comes down, over the rat trap and under the wire, out of the frying pan straight into the fire…. Put it down heavy, serve up clean, lay it down dirty, and play it back mean….”

    “Sunrise” is generally acknowledged as Donna’s “larger-than-most-mortals” ode to roadie (and father to a couple GD extended family kids) Rex Jackson, who was killed in a car accident. (GD charity arm Rex Foundation is named after him). “I remember breezes from winds inside your body keep me high”sounds like a personal lover, but “plants the tree of life on our foreheads” sounds like a seriously religious angle, so I’d need to know more.

    “Passenger” is VERY different here. Allegedly, it’s a pun on Fleetwood Mac’s “Station Man”, and the slower speed and big riffs between verse lines on this primitive version does indeed sound like the Mac song. (Which came first, the song or Mac producer Keith Olsen’s involvement?) I’m embarrassed to draw a blank on lyricist Peter Monk (!), but I always perceived that the “passenger” is riding this life and world; “What is a man deep down inside, but a raging beast with nothing to hide”. Extra verse includes “jet plane shadow across the sky, just like an elephant heading to die”.

    Cover tunes from ’76 “Samson And Delilah” and the disco/jazz “Dancin’ In The Street” are on the tape, too.

    Lastly, Phil Lesh’s “Equinox”. I’ve heard lyrics are also by Lesh (but possibly Bobby Petersen??), and was sung by Garcia. A VERY complex tune, it was worked on extensively but abandoned and never performed live. “Passenger” is musically simple by comparison. Lyrics are fairly cryptic;

    “She reclines, closing her eyes
    The sun that set is bound to rise
    Night birds and fireflies settle round her
    Days grow long, spring is here
    Waterfalls shine again
    Our minds have gone down stream
    Shooting the rapids

    Bright as gold, the arms you gave
    Bright as the eye of a hurricane
    We're all just the [sins] growing [children]
    Every moment is perfect, every [sin] is a jewel
    Every man is a prophet at the mercy of a fool

    Watch the seasons go, as sunshine turns to cold snow
    Showers and rain
    [Numbers of] tomorrow
    The great globe spins, the music starts
    Every beat knows its part
    To keep it spinning in a circle
    Every moment is perfect, every eye's a jewel
    Every man is a prophet with the mercy of a fool”


    The Grateful Dead were on a roll inspiration-wise. Did I forget to mention that in early March ’77 they sent their representatives to Egypt to start negotiating a concert at the foot of the Pyramids?
     

    Attached Files:

  8. jacksondownunda

    jacksondownunda Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Live ’77 Pt 1- DL1, DP29, DP3, Hartford ’77, Winterland June 77

    I saw a couple of the shows the first half of ‘77 and I agree with a quote then that they were each “little gems”. The sound was richer, but the music a bit more structured and “carefully” played than in previous years. Most of this new material was played live for months with the great enthusiasm and confidence of a band that KNEW they had some great stuff to drop on an awe-struck audience. When listening to these live shows, it makes the experience that much more breathtaking to remember that the studio album wasn’t yet released.

    There have been very recent SHF threads on a couple ’77 archive releases (particularly the new Winterland box which is just arriving now in the mails), but if you have comparisons or thoughts for here, they’re quite welcome.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    from deaddisc.com;


    Grateful Dead Download Series Volume 1 - 4/30/77

    Initial release : June 2005
    Grateful Dead Records

    The first in a series of shows made available by downloading from the official Grateful Dead site. The complete April 30, 1977 show at the Palladium, New York City. Bonus tracks are from the April 29, 1977 show. The downloads are available in both 128 & 256 MP3 and high quality lossless FLAC formats..


    Tracks

    Disc 1
    • The Music Never Stopped
    • Bertha
    • It's All Over Now
    • Deal
    • Mama Tried >
    • Me and My Uncle
    • Peggy-O
    • Looks Like Rain
    • Mississippi Half Step Uptown Toodeloo
    • Promised Land

    Disc 2
    • Scarlet Begonias >
    • Fire On The Mountain
    • Good Lovin'
    • Friend Of The Devil
    • Estimated Prophet

    Disc 3
    • St. Stephen >
    • Not Fade Away >
    • Stella Blue >
    • St. Stephen >
    • One More Saturday Night
    • Terrapin Station


    Bonus tracks from 4/29/77
    • Sugaree
    • Scarlet Begonias >
    • Goin' Down The Road

    Musicians
    • Jerry Garcia - lead guitar, vocals
    • Donna Jean Godchaux - vocals
    • Keith Godchaux - keyboards
    • Mickey Hart - drums
    • Bill Kreutzmann - drums
    • Phil Lesh - bass
    • Bob Weir - rhythm guitar, vocals

    Credits
    • Recording - Betty Cantor-Jackson
    • Mastering - Jeffrey Norman

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    • A bonus CD of music recorded live at the Grateful Dead show at Chicago Auditorium Theater on May 12, 1977 was included with pre-ordered copies of the Winterland June 1977 box set.

    • Mississippi Half-Step Uptown Toodeloo>
    • Dancing In The Street
    • Terrapin Station>
    • Playing In The Band>
    • Drums>
    • Not Fade Away>
    • Comes A Time>
    • Playing In The Band

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dick's Picks, Volume Twenty Nine

    Initial release : June 2003
    Grateful Dead Records

    Six CD set recorded live in Atlanta on May 19, 1977 and Lakeland on May 21, 1977. Two complete shows with the exception of the encore from the the 5/21/77 show which is not included.

    Tracks

    Disc 1
    • Promised Land (Berry)
    • Sugaree (Garcia / Hunter)
    • El Paso (Robbins)
    • Peggy-O (Traditional arr. Grateful Dead)
    • Looks Like Rain (Weir / Barlow)
    • Row Jimmy (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Passenger (Lesh / Monk)
    • Loser (Garcia / Hunter)

    Disc 2
    • Dancing In The Streets (Stevenson / Gaye / I. Hunter)
    • Samson and Delilah (Traditional arr. Bob Weir)
    • Ramble On Rose (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Estimated Prophet (Weir / Barlow)
    Hidden tracks from Oct 11, 1977
    • Not Fade Away (Petty / Hardin)
    • Wharf Rat (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Around And Around (Berry)

    Disc 3
    • Terrapin Station (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Playing In The Band (Weir / Hart / Hunter)
    • Uncle John's Band (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Drums (Hart / Kreutzmann)
    • The Wheel (Garcia / Kreutzmann / Hunter)
    • China Doll (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Playing In The Band (Weir / Hart / Hunter)

    Disc 4
    • Bertha (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Me and My Uncle (Phillips)
    • They Love Each Other (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Cassidy (Weir / Barlow)
    • Jack-A-Roe (Traditional arr. Grateful Dead)
    • Jack Straw (Weir / Hunter)
    • Tennessee Jed (Garcia / Hunter)
    • New Minglewood Blues (Traditional arr. Bob Weir)
    • Row Jimmy (Garcia / Hunter)

    Disc 5
    • Passenger (Lesh / Monk)
    • Scarlet Begonias (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Fire On The Mountain (Hart / Hunter)
    • Samson and Delilah (Traditional arr. Bob Weir)
    • Brown-Eyed Woman (Garcia / Hunter)
    Hidden tracks from Oct 11, 1977
    • Dancing In The Streets (Stevenson / Gaye / I. Hunter)
    • Dire Wolf (Garcia / Hunter)

    Disc 6
    • Estimated Prophet (Weir / Barlow)
    • He's Gone (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Drums (Hart / Kreutzmann)
    • The Other One (Weir / Kreutzmann)
    • Comes A Time (Garcia / Hunter)
    • St. Stephen (Garcia / Lesh / Hunter)
    • Not Fade Away (Petty / Hardin)
    • St. Stephen (Garcia / Lesh / Hunter)
    • One More Saturday Night (Weir)

    Credits
    • Recorded by - Betty Cantor-Jackson
    • CD Mastering - Jeffrey Norman
    • Tape Archivist - David Lemieux
    • Archival Research - Eileen Law/Grateful Dead Archives
    • Cover art, package design - Robert Minkin
    • Photography - Jim Anderson
    • Recorded live at the Fox Theatre, Atlanta, GA on May 19, 1977 and at the Lakeland Civic Center Arena, Lakeland, FL on May 21, 1977
    • Hidden tracks on discs 2 and 5 recorded live at Norman, OK on October 11, 1977

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dick's Picks, Volume Three

    Initial release : November 1995
    Grateful Dead Records GDCD-4021
    Two CD live set from the May 22, 1977 show at Pembroke Pines, Florida.

    Tracks

    Disc 1
    • Funiculi Funicula (Traditional arr. Grateful Dead)
    • The Music Never Stopped (Bob Weir / John Barlow)
    • Sugaree (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter)
    • Lazy Lightning (Bob Weir / John Barlow)
    • Supplication (Bob Weir / John Barlow)
    • Dancin' In The Streets (Stevenson/Gaye/I. Hunter)
    • Help On The Way (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter)
    • Slipknot! (Grateful Dead)
    • Franklin's Tower (Jerry Garcia / Bill Kreutzmann / Robert Hunter)

    Disc 2
    • Samson And Delilah (Traditional arr. Bob Weir)
    • Sunrise (Donna Godchaux)
    • Estimated Prophet (Bob Weir / John Barlow)
    • Eyes Of The World (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter)
    • Wharf Rat (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter)
    • Terrapin Station (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter)
    • Morning Dew (Dobson/Rose)

    Credits
    • Recorded by - Betty Cantor-Jackson
    • Tape Archivist - Dick Latvala
    • CD mastering - Jeffrey Norman
    • Photography - Ed Perlstein
    • Cover design - Gecko Graphics
    • Artwork - GDM Inc.
    • Recorded at The Sportatorium, Pembroke Pines, FL on May 22, 1977

    Notes
    The rear cover of the CD carries the following message.
    Caveat Emptor:
    This show was originally recorded on analog tape manufactured in the late 1970s. Many tapes from this period have exhibited severe deterioration in recent years. The chemical formulation has failed over time causing the magnetic oxide (which holds the musical information) to separate from the mylar backing. Fortunately we were able to recover the music on these tapes by using a baking process which rebonded the oxide to the tape. While the results of this restoration were quite remarkable, occasional weirdness remains.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    To Terrapin: Hartford '77

    Grateful Dead Records
    Initial release : April 2009

    A 3 CD set of the complete Grateful Dead show at the Hartford Civic Center on May 28, 1977.

    Tracks
    Disc 1
    • Bertha (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Good Lovin (Resnick / Clark)
    • Sugaree (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Jack Straw (Weir / Hunter)
    • Row Jimmy (Garcia / Hunter)

    Disc 2
    • New Minglewood Blues (Traditional arr. Bob Weir)
    • Candyman (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Passenger (Lesh / Monk)
    • Brown-Eyed Women (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Promised Land (Berry)
    • Samson and Delilah (Traditional arr. Bob Weir)
    • Tennessee Jed (Garcia / Hunter)

    Disc 3
    • Estimated Prophet (Weir / Barlow)
    • Playing In The Band (Weir / Hart / Hunter)
    • Terrapin Station (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Drums (Hart / Kreutzmann)
    • Not Fade Away (Petty / Hardin)
    • Wharf Rat (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Playing In The Band (Weir / Hart / Hunter)
    • One More Saturday Night (Weir)
    • U.S. Blues (Garcia / Hunter)

    Credits
    • Produced for release by David Lemieux
    • Recording - Betty Cantor-Jackson
    • CD mastering - Jeffrey Norman at Garage Audio Mastering, Petaluma, CA
    • Cover art - Scott McDougall
    • Art direction - Steve Vance
    • CD booklet essay - Gary Lambert
    • Recorded live at Hartford Civic Center, Hartford, CT, May 28, 1977

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Winterland June 1977: The Complete Recordings

    Initial release: 2009
    Grateful Dead Records

    A 9 CD box set of all the music played at the three Winterland shows on June 7, 8 and 9, 1977.

    Tracks

    CD 1: June 7, 1977;
    • Bertha
    • Jack Straw
    • Tennessee Jed
    • Looks Like Rain
    • Peggy-O
    • Funiculi Funicula
    • El Paso
    • Friend of the Devil
    • The Music Never Stopped

    CD 2: June 7, 1977;
    • Scarlet Begonias>
    • Fire On The Mountain>
    • Good Lovin'
    • Candyman
    • Estimated Prophet>
    • He's Gone>
    • Drums

    CD 3: June 7, 1977;
    • Samson and Delilah>
    • Terrapin Station>
    • Morning Dew>
    • Around and Around
    • Uncle John's Band
    • U.S. Blues

    CD 4: June 8, 1977;
    • New Minglewood Blues
    • Sugaree
    • Mexicali Blues
    • Row Jimmy
    • Passenger
    • Sunrise
    • Brown-Eyed Women
    • It's All Over Now
    • Jack-A-Roe
    • Lazy Lightning>
    • Supplication

    CD 5: June 8, 1977;
    • Bertha>
    • Good Lovin
    • Ramble On Rose
    • Estimated Prophet>
    • Eyes of the World>
    • Drums

    CD 6: June 8, 1977;
    • The Other One>
    • Wharf Rat>
    • Not Fade Away>
    • Goin' Down The Road Feeling Bad>
    • Johnny B. Goode
    • Brokedown Palace

    CD 7: June 9, 1977;
    • Mississippi Half-Step Uptown Toodeloo
    • Jack Straw
    • They Love Each Other
    • Cassidy
    • Sunrise
    • Deal
    • Looks Like Rain
    • Loser
    • The Music Never Stopped

    CD 8: June 9, 1977;
    • Samson and Delilah
    • Funiculi Funicula
    • Help On The Way>
    • Slipknot!>
    • Franklin's Tower

    CD 9: June 9, 1977;
    • Estimated Prophet>
    • Saint Stephen>
    • Not Fade Away>
    • Drums>
    • Saint Stephen>
    • Terrapin Station>
    • Sugar Magnolia
    • U.S. Blues
    • One More Saturday Night

    Credits
    • CD Mastering - Jeffrey Norman
    • Artwork - Emek
    • Booklet essay - David Fricke
    • Photography - Ed Perlstein, Polonsky
    .
    Related releases
    A bonus CD of music recorded live at the Grateful Dead show in Chicago on May 12, 1977 was included with pre-ordered copies of the Winterland June 1977 box set.
    ----------------------------
     

    Attached Files:

  9. jacksondownunda

    jacksondownunda Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Terrapin Station

    After the GD/Round Records/Rackow debacle, the GD were low on funds and without a record label. They recalled that Clive Davis (pictured w/Garcia) from Columbia had approached them a few years earlier about signing, but they’d proceeded to create their own record company when Davis couldn’t guarantee pressing quality to their high standards. Davis, however, had given some helpful advice and things to watch for (some of which occurred) which must’ve created some kind of trust. Davis had recently gone on to create Arista Records (renaming old Bell Records) and it was here that GD signed. They weren’t zillion sellers, but Clive felt the signing of GD brought a level of visibility or presitge to Arista (not unlike Dylan and Columbia). It was a multi-album deal, and there was a stipulation (at least in the short-term) that they utilize outside producers for their albums. They’d been producing their own albums since the David Hassinger episodes on the first two WB albums, but they agreed to give it a try.

    I’d seen the brand new Buckingham/Nicks incarnation of Fleetwood Mac (before they started getting airplay) open for Rod Stewart and The Faces, and noted that the crunchy Alembic bass sound and male/female vocal line up reminded me a bit of GD (and I mused that this Mac incarnation MAY sell a few records). It seemed no little co-incidence to me when Mac made it big and Mac producer Keith Olsen (pictured at mixing board) was brought in to steer the new GD material in the studio. Many fans wish he’d only left it at a Rumours level of production. First up, Olsen told Phil to grab a Fender P-bass because he reckoned the Alembic sounded like a washtub bass. Olsen DID crack the whip and got some particularly tight and seamless/flawless performances out of the band, which adds to the beauty of the material. It was the post-production that was most controversial. Olsen took the tapes to London for chorale and orchestral overdubs. Organic female choruses had appeared in “Ripple” and the 1st mix of “Mountains Of The Moon”, but the English Choral seemed to be a bit of overkill (like the Rolling Stones “You Can’t Always Get What You Want”). Hart and Garcia had recorded an intense tala/guitar instrumental passage (possibly akin to the Diga stuff?), but Olsen wiped Hart’s part and substituted strings to Hart’s horror. It also appears that several Garcia guitar lines were transcribed and replaced by scored orchestral horns or strings. (In all fairness, 10-20 years later they would have used their midi-instruments to get the same effect.) Lastly, Olsen added horns to the 12”maxi-single version of “Dancin’ In The Streets” (but not the vinyl album version), which is where the cd version comes from. “Equinox” and “Fire On The Mountain” were missing in action, but perhaps it was felt that “Samson And Delilah” and “Dancin’” were either stronger or had broader crossover appeal.

    The album was finally released in late July ’77 (a month after the ’74 tour movie which seemed like a distant memory and a different band). Reviews were varied; There was the ecstatic Richard Meltzer interview calling it GD’s best studio work and maybe better than Live/Dead (in it’s own cinematic way), but on the other hand another critic said TS was probably okay for a rum-and-coke conga line. Fans went negatively bananas about the over-production prompting Weir in an interview to say “Those that don’t like it aren’t wanting the GD to grow”, but eventually the band conceded that it may be a bit over baked. In those days we didn’t have 10 hi-fi live archive performances to choose from, so these days it’s a moot point.

    (pictured; Grateful Dead group shot, dreaming of cleaning up at the Grammy's. “Please stack your chairs on the way out.” LOL.)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From deadisc.com;

    Terrapin Station

    Initial release : July 27, 1977
    Arista AL-7001

    The first Grateful Dead album on the Arista label.

    Tracks
    • Estimated Prophet (Weir/Barlow)
    • Dancin' In The Streets (Stevenson/Gaye/I. Hunter)
    • Passenger (Lesh/Monk)
    • Samson and Delilah (Traditional arr. Bob Weir)
    • Sunrise (D. Godchaux)
    • Terrapin Station:
    - Lady With A Fan (Garcia/Hunter)
    - Terrapin Station (Garcia/Hunter)
    - Terrapin (Garcia/Hunter)
    - Terrapin Transit (Hart/Kreutzmann)
    - At A Siding (Hart/Hunter)
    - Terrapin Flyer (Hart/Kreutzmann)
    - Refrain (Garcia)

    Bonus tracks on CD version released in the Beyond Description box set in 2004 and as a separate CD in 2006;
    • Peggy-O (Traditional) - Instrumental studio outtake, 11/2/76
    • The Ascent (Grateful Dead) - Instrumental studio outtake, 11/2/76
    • Catfish John (McDill / Reynolds) - Studio outtake, Fall 1976
    • Equinox (Lesh) - Studio outtake, 2/17/77
    • Fire On The Mountain (Hart / Hunter) - Studio outtake, Feb 1977
    • Dancin' In The Streets (Stevenson / Gaye / I. Hunter) - Live, 5/8/77

    Musicians
    • Bob Weir - guitar, vocals
    • Phil Lesh - bass, vocals
    • Jerry Garcia - guitar, vocals
    • Donna Godchaux - vocals
    • Keith Godchaux - keyboards
    • Bill Kreutzmann - drums
    • Mickey Hart - drums

    With;
    • Paul Buckmaster - orchestral arrangments
    • The Martyn Ford Orchestra (conducted by Martyn Ford)
    • The English Choral (conducted by Robert Howes)
    • Tom Scott - lyricon, saxophones (on Estimated Prophet)

    Credits
    • Producer - Keith Olsen for Pogologo Productions
    • Engineer - Keith Olsen, David DeVore
    • Cover Art - Kelly/Mouse Studio
    • Art coordination - Mary Ann Mayer
    • Recorded and mixed at Sound City, Van Nuys, CA, 2/77 - 6/77
    • Additional recording at Automated Sound Studios, New York City; AIR London, Trident, Abbey Road, London, 5/77
    • Mastered by Rick Collins at Kendun Recorders
    • Re-mastering - Greg Fulginiti at Artisan Sound Recorders

    Notes

    The recording of Terrapin Station was the first time since the early recording stages of Anthem Of The Sun in 1967 that the Dead had used an outside producer to assist in the studio.

    The selection of Keith Olsen can be seen as an attempt to produce a more commercial album. In an interview Garcia described working with him in a positive light;
    He has a really excellent ear and he's worked really well with us ... The performances are really amazing, much better than we're able to flog out of ourselves when we're in there producing ourselves.

    The album was criticized though for overproduction, particularly the chorus and orchestra on the Terrapin Station side of the LP. In later years the group themselves joined in this criticism.

    Related releases

    Two singles were released in conjunction with this LP;
    • Dancing In The Streets / Terrapin Station, Grateful Dead, 1977, Arista 0276
    • Passenger / Terrapin Station, Grateful Dead, 1977, Arista 0291

    An audiophile pressing was released in 1980, Direct Disk SD-16619.
    Released on CD in 1986, Arista ARCD-8065.

    A remastered, expanded version of Terrapin Station was included in the box set;
    • Beyond Description, Grateful Dead, Oct 2004
    This remastered, expanded version was released as a single CD in 2006.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. jacksondownunda

    jacksondownunda Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Late ’77 Live– DP15, RT1.2, DP34, DP10

    GD got an unexpected summer off when Mickey Hart sustained multiple fractures in a car accident. They made it up over Labour Day Weekend with a “really big shew” at Englishtown Raceway for 100,000 fans. Security fencing was made up of a perimeter of shipping containers. Hart was still mending and Donna was sitting after a recent hospital visit (pregnancy woes??). Initial reports (and an edited syndicated broadcast) suggested the performance was a bit stiff as they hadn’t played for awhile. When Dick Latvala said “wait until you hear Englishtown” for DP15 I was a bit cynical, but he was right; if you’ve only heard the broadcast there are textures and nuances you haven’t heard. Make no mistake, some of the show IS stiff, but “Friend Of The Devil” is a personal fave and the simply monstrous and lengthy “Not Fade Away” is on many fan’s “all time best” lists.

    They play some very beautiful music on the remaining Dick Pick’s and Road Trips for the year (I’m a big fan of the return of “ChinaRider” out of “Playin’” in the December DP), and it appears the intense and “tasteful” playing paid off.

    The finally got it “Just exactly perfect”.

    Anybody feel inspired to comment?

    ------------------------------------------
    From deaddisc.com;

    Dick's Picks, Volume Fifteen

    Initial release : October 1999
    Grateful Dead Records GDCD-4035

    Three CD set recorded live on September 3, 1977 in Englishtown, NJ

    Tracks

    Disc 1
    • Introduction by John Scher
    • Promised Land (Chuck Berry)
    • They Love Each Other (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter)
    • Me and My Uncle (Phillips)
    • Mississippi Half-Step Uptown Toodeloo (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter)
    • Looks Like Rain (Bob Weir / John Barlow)
    • Peggy-O (Traditional arr. Grateful Dead)
    • New Minglewood Blues (Traditional arr. Grateful Dead)
    • Friend Of The Devil (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter / John Dawson)
    • The Music Never Stopped (Bob Weir / John Barlow)

    Disc 2
    • Bertha (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter)
    • Good Lovin' (Resnick / Clark)
    • Loser (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter)
    • Estimated Prophet (Bob Weir / John Barlow)
    • Eyes Of The World (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter)
    • Samson and Delilah (Traditional arr. Bob Weir)

    Disc 3
    • He's Gone (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter)
    • Not Fade Away (Petty / Hardin)
    • Truckin' (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter / Phil Lesh / Bob Weir)
    • Terrapin Station (Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter)

    Musicians
    • Jerry Garcia - lead guitar, vocals
    • Donna Jean Godchaux - vocals
    • Keith Godchaux - keyboards
    • Mickey Hart - drums
    • Bill Kreutzmann - drums
    • Phil Lesh - electric bass, vocals
    • Bob Weir - rhythm guitar, vocals

    Credits
    • Recorded by - Betty Cantor-Jackson
    • Tape Archivist - Dick Latvala
    • CD Mastering - Jeffrey Norman
    • Ferromagnetist - John Cutler
    • Design - Gecko Graphics
    • Photography - Jim Anderson, John Oliver, GD Archives
    • Liner notes - Martha Megill (from Asbury Park Press 9.6.77)
    • Recorded live on September 3, 1977 at the Raceway Park, Englishtown, NJ

    Notes

    The CD booklet includes the following;
    People of Earth...
    Greetings from the great beyond. I am contacting you at this time to assure you that all is well and to let you know that Dick's Picks shall continue in my absence just as before. My plans for future releases are well known to my teammates and they have sworn with their blood to remain true to the cause. I hope this release will alleviate any doubts concerning my posthumous powers.
    The Archivist formerly known as Dick

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Road Trips: Vol 1, Number 2: October 1977

    Initial release : 2008
    Grateful Dead / Rhino

    A two CD release of live music from the Grateful Dead tour in October 1977 through Oklahoma, Texas, and Louisiana. A third bonus CD was included with early copies of this release.

    Tracks

    CD 1;
    • Let It Grow (Weir / Barlow)
    • Sugaree (Garcia / Hunter)
    • The Music Never Stopped (Weir / Barlow)
    • Mississippi Half-Step Uptown Toodleoo (Garcia / Hunter)
    • El Paso (Robbins)
    • Help On the Way (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Slipknot! (Garcia / Godchuax / Lesh / Weir)
    • Franklin's Tower (Garcia / Hunter / Kreutzmann)

    CD 2;
    • Playing In the Band (Weir / Hunter)
    • Drums (Hart / Kreutzmann)
    • The Other One (Weir)
    • Good Lovin' (Resnick / Clark)
    • Terrapin Station (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Black Peter (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Around and Around (Berry)
    • Brokedown Palace (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Playing In the Band reprise (Weir / Hunter)

    Bonus CD included with early copies;
    • Scarlet Begonias (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Fire On the Mountain (Hart / Hunter)
    • Estimated Prophet (Weir / Barlow)
    • Loser (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Sunrise (Godchaux)
    • Iko Iko (Traditional / Crawford)
    • The Wheel (Garcia / Hunter / Kreutzmann)
    • Wharf Rat (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Sugar Magnolia (Weir / Hunter)

    Credits
    • Producer - Grateful Dead
    • Compilation producer - David Lemieux, Blair Jackson
    • Recording - Betty Cantor-Jackson
    • Editing, mastering - Jeffrey Norman
    • Cover art - Scott McDougall
    • Photos - Bob Minkin, Ed Perlstein
    • Package design - Steve Vance
    • Booklet essay - Steve Silberman

    Notes
    The songs on the main two discs are from the following shows.

    CD 1;
    • Let It Grow - Oct 11, 1977, Norman, OK
    • Sugaree - Oct 16, 1977, Baton Rouge, LA
    • The Music Never Stopped - Oct 16, 1977, Baton Rouge, LA
    • Mississippi Half-Step Uptown Toodleoo - Oct 14, 1977, Houston, TX
    • El Paso - Oct 14, 1977, Houston, TX
    • Help On the Way - Oct 11, 1977, Norman, OK
    • Slipknot! - Oct 11, 1977, Norman, OK
    • Franklin's Tower - Oct 11, 1977, Norman, OK

    CD 2;
    • Playing In the Band - Oct 14, 1977, Houston, TX
    • Drums - Oct 16, 1977, Baton Rouge, LA
    • The Other One - Oct 16, 1977, Baton Rouge, LA
    • Good Lovin' - Oct 16, 1977, Baton Rouge, LA
    • Terrapin Station - Oct 16, 1977, Baton Rouge, LA
    • Black Peter - Oct 16, 1977, Baton Rouge, LA
    • Around and Around - Oct 16, 1977, Baton Rouge, LA
    • Brokedown Palace - Oct 14, 1977, Houston, TX
    • Playing In the Band reprise - Oct 14, 1977, Houston, TX

    The tracks on the bonus CD are from the following shows;
    • Scarlet Begonias - Oct 16, 1977, Baton Rouge, LA
    • Fire On the Mountain - Oct 16, 1977, Baton Rouge, LA
    • Estimated Prophet - Oct 16, 1977, Baton Rouge, LA
    • Loser - Oct 14, 1977, Houston, TX
    • Sunrise - Oct 11, 1977, Norman, OK
    • Iko Iko - Oct 7, 1977, Albuquerque, NM
    • The Wheel - Oct 7, 1977, Albuquerque, NM
    • Wharf Rat - Oct 7, 1977, Albuquerque, NM
    • Sugar Magnolia - Oct 7, 1977, Albuquerque, NM

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dick's Picks, Volume Thirty Four

    Initial release : February 2005
    Grateful Dead Records

    A 3 CD set of music comprising the whole November 5, 1977 show at the Community War Memorial in Rochester, NY plus bonus tracks from the November 2, 1977 show at Seneca College Field House in Toronto, Ontario.

    Tracks

    Disc 1 (11/5/77)
    • New Minglewood Blues (Traditional arr. Bob Weir)
    • Mississippi Half-Step Uptown Toodeloo (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Looks Like Rain (Weir / Barlow)
    • Dire Wolf (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Mama Tried (Haggard)
    • Big River (Cash)
    • Candyman (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Jack Straw (Weir / Hunter)
    • Deal (Garcia / Hunter)

    Disc 2 (11/5/77)
    • Phil Solo (Lesh)
    • Take A Step Back (Grateful Dead)
    • Eyes Of The World (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Samson and Delilah (Traditional arr. Bob Weir)
    • It Must Have Been The Roses (Hunter)
    Bonus Tracks: 11/2/77 Seneca College Field House, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    • Might As Well (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Estimated Prophet > (Weir / Barlow)
    • St. Stephen > (Garcia / Lesh / Hunter)
    • Truckin' > (Garcia / Lesh / Weir / Hunter)
    • Around and Around (Berry)

    Disc 3 (11/5/77)
    • Estimated Prophet (Weir / Barlow)
    • He's Gone (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Rhythm Devils (Hart / Kreutzmann)
    • The Other One (Weir / Kreutzmann)
    • Black Peter (Garcia / Hunter)
    • Sugar Magnolia (Weir / Hunter)
    • One More Saturday Night (Weir)
    Bonus Tracks: 11/2/77 Seneca College Field House, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    • Lazy Lightning (Weir / Barlow)
    • Supplication (Weir / Barlow)

    Credits
    • Recording - Betty Cantor-Jackson
    • Tape archivist - David Lemieux
    • CD mastering - Jeffrey Norman
    • Archival research - Eileen Law/Grateful Dead Archives
    • Photography - Jim Anderson, Robert Minkin, Brian Walski
    • Cover art, package design - Robert Minkin
    • Recorded live on November 5, 1977 at the Community War Memorial in Rochester, NY
    • Bonus tracks recorded live on November 2, 1977 at Seneca College Field House in Toronto, Ontario

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dick's Picks, Volume Ten

    Initial release : February 1998
    Grateful Dead Records GDCD-4030

    Three CD live set compiled from the December 29-30, 1977 shows at Winterland

    Tracks

    Disc 1
    • Jack Straw (Weir/Hunter)
    • They Love Each Other (Garcia/Hunter)
    • Mama Tried (Merle Haggard)
    • Loser (Garcia/Hunter)
    • Looks Like Rain (Weir/Barlow)
    • Tennessee Jed (Garcia/Hunter)
    • New Minglewood Blues (Traditional arr. Bob Weir)
    • Sugaree (Garcia/Hunter)
    • Promised Land (Chuck Berry)

    Disc 2
    • Bertha (Garcia/Hunter)
    • Good Lovin' (Resnick/Clark)
    • Playing In The Band (Weir/Hart/Hunter)
    • China Cat Sunflower (Garcia/Hunter)
    • I Know You Rider (Traditional arr. Grateful Dead)
    • China Doll (Garcia/Hunter)
    • Playing Jam (Weir/Hart)
    • Drums (Kreutzmann/Hart)
    • Not Fade Away (Hardin/Petty)
    • Playing In The Band (Weir/Hart/Hunter)

    Disc 3
    • Terrapin Station (Garcia/Hunter)
    • Johnny B. Goode (Chuck Berry)
    • Estimated Prophet (Weir/Barlow)
    • Eyes Of The World (Garcia/Hunter)
    • St. Stephen (Garcia/Lesh/Hunter)
    • Sugar Magnolia (Weir/Hunter)

    Credits
    • Recording - Betty Cantor-Jackson
    • Tape Archivist - Dick Latvala
    • Ferromagnetist - Jeffrey Norman
    • Cover Design - Gecko Graphics
    • Photography - Ed Perlstein
    • Liner notes - Michael Nash
    • Recorded live on December 29 and 30, 1977 at Winterland Arena in San Francisco, CA

    Notes
    The rear cover of Dick's Picks 10 carries the following message.
    Caveat Emptor:
    This release was digitally mastered directly from the original half track 7.5 ips analog tapes. It is a snapshot of history, not a modern professional recording, and although it may exhibit some minor technical anomalies, it is nothing more or less than just exactly perfect.
    This notes refers to Bob Weir's announcement to the crowd before the start of the show on 12/29/77 as technical problems are being remedied;
    We're gonna try to get everything just exactly perfect . . . on account of our new name is the Just Exactly Perfect Brothers Band.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    See also; A bonus CD that was distributed with pre-ordered copies of the Closing Of Winterland CD and DVD sets. The CD comprises tracks from other New Years Eve shows in the 1970's.
    • Lazy Lightning > - December 31, 1977
    • Supplication - December 31, 1977
    • Sugar Magnolia - December 31, 1977
    • Scarlet Begonias - December 31, 1977
    • Fire On The Mountain - December 31, 1977
     

    Attached Files:

  11. jacksondownunda

    jacksondownunda Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    A funny anecdote just occurred to me from this era… The Dead had been quite a handful for Warner Brothers, but they could also be unpredictable for Clive Davis and Arista when they wanted to be. Terrapin Station received some airplay and much Arista hype “A New Dead Era Is Upon Us”. When proud Clive attended one of their big venue shows in New York one night, they Dead managed NOT to play a single song from it. I can only imagine Clive’s reaction.
     
  12. Jerry

    Jerry Grateful Gort Staff

    Location:
    New England
    But they probably, knowing Weir's sense of humor, played "Jack Straw" with the altered lyric "We used to play for silver, now we play for Clive."
     
  13. JayB

    JayB Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT
    So many amazing shows from this era, DP 10 as well as DP3 are two of the best IMO.

    Edit: Add DP 29 to that list as well..how could I forget that one?!

    Also, 10/11/77 was in the running for Dicks Picks #1. Thats a show I love!
     
  14. ZappaSG

    ZappaSG New Member

    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Well, we finally got here to 1977. By far my favorite GD era. It has everything: heavy rocking, disco beats, funk, psychedelic weirdness, ridiculous chops, beauty and everything in between.

    DP29 is a real eye opener for me and although DP36 was the one that turned me on full throttle for the Dead, it is DP29 that really, really sets them apart as a whole other entity. What a release this is! Six discs of absolute beauty and power. i know 5/19 is considered the stand out but 5/21 is one of my favorite shows by anyone ever. It has an amazing Scarlet>Fire that never goes too far off the deep end. It has an amazing and beautiful first set with a great laid back Bertha to kick things off. The Estimated > He's Gone > Drums > The Other One > Comes a Time > St. Stephen > Not Fade Away > St. Stephen is nothing short of spectacular.

    Heck, even just the bonus Not Fade Away hidden on disc 2 is a treasure! Those pounding war drums kick things off and midway through the jam Jerry gets into this great repeating little riff. Even the little tape distortion where the band drops out and Jerry keeps going works perfectly.

    Oddly enough, this and 5/8/77 are the only 77's I have. I have been meaning to get more and it looks like Winterland 77 is the way to go. However, I will have to wait on purchasing that but I am looking forward to it.
     
  15. JayB

    JayB Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT

    I personally prefer 5/21 to 5/19 also Zappa..

    And the Not Fade Away->Wharf Rat->Around "hidden tracks" you mention on DP29 is from the 10/11/77 show I mentioned above! :righton:
     
  16. The Terrapin Station album was my introduction to the Grateful Dead. I had heard Bruce Hornsby doing "Lady With A Fan" on a live album and wanted to check out the original. I was a fan right away and have remained ever since. I'm glad that we've had lots of 1977 live material this year with To Terrapin: Hartford 77 and Winterland June 1977.
     
  17. MikeP5877

    MikeP5877 Uh Huh

    Location:
    OH
    The NFA from 10/11 is easily in my top 5 NFA's. Jerry starts playing this cool, hypnotic riff half way through.

    32nd anniversary tomorrow!
     
  18. JayB

    JayB Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT
    Didn't think about the anniversary! I'll have to listen to it tomorrow. It's just one of those shows that the "it" factor is in full effect if you know what I mean..
     
  19. shadowlord

    shadowlord Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austria
    To Terrapin, Hartford 77 is one of my favorite GD records.

    do you guys maybe have a suggestion what other 77 shows to check out ??
    There are a few Dicks Picks (3, 10, 15, 29, 34) and i don't know which have good SQ.
     
  20. I'm not really an expert when it comes to 1977 live releases, but I absolutely love the recent Winterland June 1977 boxed set. If you like Hartford 77 you'll love this.
     
  21. Edgard Varese

    Edgard Varese Royale with Cheese

    Location:
    Te Wai Pounamu
    I dunno guys... I'm newish on the bus, but I'm a little agnostic about '77. OK, I agree that the 5/8/77 "Morning Dew" is the best version I've heard of this song, but more generally the disco beats creeping in kinda put me off a little (the revamped "Brown Eyed Women" and "Mama Tried", for example... really, the latter needs to be a two step on the verses at least).

    I heard a couple of tracks off the new box, and while "Sugaree" from 6/8 was great, "It's All Over Now" was not, a most inappropriate arrangment for that sort of song, I think. I'd like to hear the rest of the set, and hope to have a "preview" soon, but what I've heard thus far of '77 hasn't grabbed me by the lapels as, say '72 and '73 did.

    Shall I go hide now? :whistle:
     
  22. dr.zoix

    dr.zoix Forum Resident

    Location:
    north jersey
    Hi All,
    After reading all 34 pages I have some shows to recommend for '77. Although 5/8/77 may be the most popular, it's not the best. I would HIGHLY recommend 5/11/77 & 5/26/77:righton:
    I'm sure some people have more shows than me, but most of the 500+ plus are from '68-77 & are mostly soundboards
     
  23. JayB

    JayB Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT
    No reason to hide, I've been on the bus for 25 or so years and I love Europe 72 material & 1973-74 as much as anything from 77.

    Do you have DP10 wysi? (12/29/77 with 12/30 filler) I love that one.

    In fact I'll say I prefer the show from DP10 & DP3 ( and DP 29) more than the recently released Winterland shows. (Which are good (6/7) to great (6/9)

    There's no right or wrong, and everyone has their preferences!
     
  24. Edgard Varese

    Edgard Varese Royale with Cheese

    Location:
    Te Wai Pounamu
    I don't have DP3, 10 ... nor 29 yet (I've got 11, 14, and 23 on the way as I thought I would sort out most of the 72s and 73s first... the rest will have to wait for a bit, or at least until dead.net sorts out their newly-outrageous overseas shipping charges). As I said, I'm agnostic, only because I haven't found one yet that really hit me the same way as the earlier shows.

    I will end up getting DPs 3, 10, and 29 though, and I'll check in and let everyone know if when I've changed my mind... :D
     
  25. shadowlord

    shadowlord Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austria
    thanks for all the suggestions so far.
    i was checking out some sbd recordings from that time and i liked 05/11/77 that someone suggested. so i went on to buy DP34 but guess what?. the dead.net store doesn't allow purchasing flac files from outside the us anymore :(

    anyway the winterland box looks very interesting too so i might get that one instead.
     
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