Grounding problem with a dedicated line?

Seems like I have a ground loop...Ugh. The example of buzzing in the first video is correct. What is odd is that this ground loop has only recently shown up. I was using this connection protocol for months before with no issues, but now I have added or changed the following: I added a stand alone SACD player and removed my old transport and DAC, also I have taken off the cartridge for repair and have the turntable disconnected, except the ic's from the arm are still attached to the preamp and are not connected to anything at the moment ( on the arm side--could this cause the problem, even though the preamp is only on the line input right now?)
I will try and connect everything to the dedicated line, although this will prove cumbersome, as I will have to use a strip to do so...there are too many cords to go to the two input wall receptacle.

 

Interesting, I've never experienced a buzz from a ground loop, it's always been a hum.

 

That’s what confused me as well, i was expecting a hum and not a buzzing sound. Although according to jea48’s first video above...the buzzing sound...is exactly what I am hearing through the speakers. This goes away with the insertion of the cheater plugs.
I am going to try and plug all of the gear via a high end power strip into the same dedicated outlet and see if that makes a difference ( without the cheater plugs of course). Will report back.

 

It's all a variation of the same source, 60Hz AC, but as I described before, "buzz" has more high frequency harmonic content from distortion or filtering.

Here's a 15 second listen, where we transition from pure 60Hz, to a signal with more distortion and then more of the lower frequencies filtered:

60hz-distortion.flac

The quality of the loop noise is dependent on how good of a ground loop you go out of your way to make, and how electrically noisy your audio equipment's power conversion is on the lines.

How does the quality of the ground between equipment and its distance between components affect the content of this noise?

Instead of signals favoring the path of least resistance, like the outlet's fat 14ga ground wire, as the frequency increases, signals start favoring the path of least inductance - like the shielding return path of your audio cables with their dielectric-spaced conductors.


Above, we have two ground paths. Does the noisy AC potential flow through the ground wire to be easily dissipated to earth, from component to component through the ground strap (the power ground or the connected chassis of equipment), or does it flow through the cable shield? A: The higher the frequency, the more it will tend to flow through the shield, where the current must return through the signal conductor.

This forms a filter, that gives us, at first, low level "buzz" like the end of the audio file, but as the ground gets worse and the frequency decreases where more of the current starts finding its way through the shielding, the more the electromagnetic interference sound "hum"-like.

Another noise mechanism when you have a loop - it forms an antenna that picks up signals passing through the loop.

 

Just to be 100% sure disconnect the TT phono cables from the preamp.

Any decent power strip should work for just a test.
Am I correct your only front end equipment is a TT and SACD player? You won't need to plug in the TT.

Did the old transport and or DAC use a 3 wire grounding type power cord? Therein the equipment used the safety equipment ground from the wall outlet.

What manufacture and model SACD player did you buy? Does it use a three wire power cord? To make sure the SACD uses the equipment ground look at the IEC inlet connector on the back of the player for the ground prong/blade. Did the buzzing sound start when you first hooked up the player?

Unplug the SACD player from the wall AC outlet and check for the buzz. (Make sure you remove the ground cheater/s from the mono amps before turning them on.)
Buzz?

For a test install a ground cheater on the SACD player. Check for hum and post back.
(Make sure the ground cheater is removed from the mono amps.)

Are the SACD interconnects single ended? Are you using the same interconnects as you used on the output of the DAC to the preamp?

.

 

You can't just go down the laundry list of everything that has been mentioned in a post and suggest that everything listed could be the problem and nothing outside of that could be (or repeat what was just said by the previous poster - "me too"s on this forum are getting unproductive). You need to apply a small bit of logical diagnosis procedure to your recommendation.

I replied to you 16 months ago:

Originally having tried out the "ground cheaters" was a novel approach. One wonders if returning to the original configuration a step at a time wouldn't also solve the problem, and allow one to find the change that caused this, but that is not the most probable way to turn a particular amount of labor into a solution.

 

I seem to remember this issue with the Lamm SET. There is some trick with the signal ground and chassis ground. When I first got mine, they were quiet. Sent them to Vlad and they came back humming. Was told it was how the circuit was wired to the chassis ground. I gather there there is a safe way to isolate the two within the component, but since I'm not qualified to render advice on electricity, I'll leave it to the experts.
Jadis makes some good chit. Is anybody bringing the line into the States any more?
I've heard them with the original Wilson Wamm, and later, in Paris, with some huge Martin Logan. (This was many years ago). Lovely gear.

 

The old and the new digital both utilize three pin connections. The SACD player is an Esoteric. It actually has a grounding connection on the rear panel, I am not using that pin for connecting it to ground...perhaps I should be? Also, all of my ic’s are single ended...from the Esoteric to the preamp to the amps. Same interconnects from the old DAC to the preamp. Front end is only the SACD player and a TT.
I will try and unplug the Esoteric and see if that makes any difference...although I cannot see why it should.

 

Bill, what’s so odd, is that the problem wasn’t there before. It only showed up once i inserted the Esoteric SACD player, and with the cartridge removed from the tonearm...very strange?

BTW, if you haven’t heard the new Jadis gear, it’s really an ear opener...much better than in the past! I believe Bluebird is bringing the gear into the US.

 

Huh. Well, I'll read the thread carefully. This stuff is a mystery to me, sometimes, troubleshooting can be miserable. I've had my issues over the years and sometimes it's something stupid obvious, and other times, really hard to pin down, particularly if it is intermittent.
You use the CAT preamp, right? And have been using that into these Jadis?
And is there significance to removing the phono cartridge? (Apologies, I didn't read the thread carefully).

 

Yes, I’m still using the Cat with the Jadis...excellent match imo.
These types of problems are really a head scratcher, I have had them before in other systems I have owned...always a pain to deal with. I do question whether there could be a significance in removing the cartridge, so I am going to remove the phono ic as well, that’s easy to do...and then we shall see.

Also, once the cartridge returns to the system, ( it went back to Lyra for repairs under warranty) I shall see if that impacts anything...

 

WHAT?

Either unplug the SACD player from the AC wall outlet or disconnect the SACD interconnects from the preamp line input jacks. Remove the ground cheater from the mono amps. Check for the buzz.

It will take 10 to 15 seconds to remove the TT phono interconnects from the RCA jacks on the preamp.

Which came first? The SACD player or removal of the cartridge? When did you first notice the buzz? When you installed the SACD player and powered up your mono amps?

Please reread my post #30. Don't look at the tasks in their entirety. Just try preforming one task at a time checking each off after completing and checking if it stopped the buzzing.

Because you stated in your post to Bill the buzz started after installing the SACD player, start there. Don't worry about the why. That comes after you find what is causing the problem.

Trouble shooting many times is nothing more than the process of elimination.

 

I agree with all this. I will try a systematic approach. Won’t be before the end of the weekend, but I am curious to see if one of these variables has anything to do with the issue. First I will remove the phono ic, like you said, it takes 15 seconds...then I will unplug the SACD player. If that changes anything, I will be surprised, but in this hobby...lol.
Will report back.

 

I will be following this thread out of curiosity. I gave up on mono blocks (owned, Manley, Lamm, Cary etc) and I could never shake one problem or another
with noise. It was either a hum, buzz, or crackle.

 

My guess it is the Esoteric causing the noise. Do I get a prize if I'm right?

 

Hey DaveyF,

I know exactly your issue because I have (more of less) the exact same set up using two different lines (one for the power amp) and get the ground loop noise just like you. It is a ground loop (for sure), because it goes away with the cheater plugs.

Further, it is not really that surprising that the SACD player manifested this issue. It's quite likely that your SACD generates the B-field that is getting picked up by the enormous loop you have.

Just to summarize (as other have pointed out) your loop starts at the breaker box for the amp power circuit. The ground runs from there through the power line and cord, to your amp chassis. Then your amp chassis is connected to your preamp chassis via the audio interconnect, and then back the the breaker box via the preamp power cord and lines. Stick a time changing magnetic field anywhere in this loop and it can cause the observed hum to varying degrees.

Here is one way to fix this. Disconnect the grounds on the power chords to your amps, you can use a cheater plug if you want. What I do is just disconnect the ground on the power cord plug. Then run a safety ground wire from the amp chassis to the ground of the power circuit that feeds your other stuff. This needs to be a solid connection, I tap off the IEC inlet plug on my power chord. Now you will have what is called single point ground, ie. all equipment grounded to the same physical location at the breaker box. This doesn't make ground loops impossible, just makes the area much smaller. You should use a suitable gauge wire for the safety grounds, say 12 or 14. And if you run them right along your interconnect to the preamp and then alone to preamp power cord to the outlet, you'll make the potential ground loop area very small. Just make sure the connections are as solid all around and use a decent gauge wire.

 

John, thanks for that. Why do you think the Esoteric is the source of the B-field?
I did notice that the Esoteric has a grounding lug in the rear of the chassis, I wonder if I were to run a ground wire from that point to the preamp if that would make any difference.
Before I was using the Esoteric, I was using a Philips transport and a EAD DAC and had none of these issues...I’m not understanding this?

 

Why do you think that? The problem did seem to arise once the Esoteric was inserted into the system, but my dealer swears that this is highly unlikely.

 

Always trust your dealer. I am so bad.

 

The dealer is not trying to be evasive, he probably doesn’t know the answer....since you seem to...please share that, why do you believe it is the Esoteric? ( BTW, I’m not saying you are wrong, just curious to know your logic).

 

Maybe I'm missing something. Why not plug in some other CD player in the circuit and take out the Esoteric? Or just remove the Esoteric entirely and see if you can produce the same buzz some other way or not? It's not expensive to do this or difficult. We can only guess as to what is happening with your system from a distance. Just start with the amp and everything else unplugged and go from there. Let us know what you find.

 

I have a dedicated line as well, and I also had ground noise when using it as a dedicated line for my power amp. It resolved itself when I moved the entire system to the dedicated line. Having equipment plugged into two different outlets (and two different circuits) definitely can cause ground noise.

 

Snip it from post:

Dave,

You answered your own question.

System worked fine, no buzz, no hum, before you "inserted" the Esoteric SACD player.

Dave no offense but it sounds like you are in denial and therefore will not unplug the Esoteric SACD player from the AC power outlet and or disconnect the player's interconnects from the Line inputs of the preamp.

How possibly could the Esoteric SACD player be at fault?
Possible reasons.

A poorly designed grounding scheme for connecting the electronic's circuit ground to the chassis equipment ground.

A bad power transformer that is passing a high capacitance coupling AC voltage from the primary winding to the secondary winding. This would be made worse if the proper ac polarity connection of the AC mains power to the primary winding is reversed. (This could be inside the player, an improperly wired after market power cord, the hot and neutral conductors reversed at the wall outlet receptacle, or branch circuit wiring reversed from one outlet box to the next.

Any type of internal AC mains filtering device that may be defective causing current, ever so small, to pass to the chassis of the player.

.

 

Don't know what to say but 2 other posts suggested plugging all the gear into the dedicated line, that's where I would start. If it is just when the Esoteric SACD player is installed that the hum starts you might try plugging just it in the dedicated line or try balanced interconnects. I got a hum with my marantz HT processor and eliminated it by using balanced interconnects and shield lift adapters. For HT not a big deal but 2ch audio I don't like adapters in the signal path.

 

Agreed to all. Today I am going to try the idea of unplugging the Esoteric and seeing if that solves the issue. Will report back.