Grounding problem with a dedicated line?

Try this simple test. Get a pieece of wire(strip both ends) that is long enough to touch both the amplifier chassis and Esoteric player and see if the buzz goes away.

 

I tried that exact test last night...no go.

 

@ DaveyF,

Because all you did was add a parallel path for the ground loop current to flow through the signal ground/chassis of the mono amps as the current passes through the equipment grounding conductor of the power cord/s of the amps back to the source.


Ralph K said:

ARC , at least on my tube power amp, uses a 10 ohm 1/4 watt resistor in series with the circuit ground and the equipment ground.

 

That’s kind of what I was thinking was happening.

I am going to try something a little different....since I also own a Rowland Model 8 tI ss amp, I thought I would see if that exhibits the same behavior with the Esoteric plugged into the convenience circuit and the Rowland into the dedicated circuit. If it does, it is a simple matter to plug the Esoteric into the dedicated line, as the Rowland is a stereo amp..and therefore uses only one power Cord into the dedicated dual outlet.
I will report back once I have tried this...should be interesting.

 

Why do you not connect everything to the dedicated circuit? Just put a cheapo extension block into the dedicated circuit and plug everything into that, just as a test. That would ensure that all the equipment grounds are at the same potential.

 

Only issue with that Davey F, is that the Rowland internal grounding scheme is probably different than the Jadis. In fact, if you installed the Rowland on the dedicated line and the Esoteric on the convenience outlet (if that is the set up you are using now, with the Jadis and Esoteric) that might be instructive whether it's the Jadis internal grounding. But, I'm speculating....
It is worth trying everything on one line.
The fact that the Jadis has a funky grounding scheme doesn't make it "junk." Any more than the Lamm SETs, which in talking with several owners, have all said they've had similar issues. You've got to love these small shops. Ever see what a ViVa amp looks like inside? Yikes!

 

Apparently, because it is more entertaining to ask questions for five days instead of implementing the five-minute solution offered on page 1.

 

Unfortunately, it is NOT a five minute solution. The way my gear is arranged and the stands that they are on will require considerable changes to permanently implement this 'solution' . I wish it were that simple. Nonetheless, I am going to do exactly this.

 

I had also considered what you said. It certainly is very possible that the 'problem' won't rear its head with the Rowland in the system, regardless of how I do the AC connection. So, I am installing the Rowland on the dedicated line and the Esoteric will remain on the convenience line...to start. If that proves to be trouble free, I'm not sure I have accomplished anything. If not, then the all on the dedicated line will follow. I will also be moving everything around and will install the Jadis and the Esoteric on the dedicated line ( along with everything else in the system). ( not something I will look forward to doing, as it is a PITA to re-locate all of my gear to accomplish this).

 

@DaveyF

Here is what you have now.
(Using the ground cheater to lift the safety equipment grounding conductor of the power cord from the wall outlet equipment ground.)


The chassis of the SACD player is being connected to the equipment grounded chassis of the preamp through the small gauge signal ground wires of the L & R channel interconnects, (ICs). Again, small gauge wires.

*** How long are the ICs that connect the SACD player to the preamp?

IF there is a hot to chassis ground fault event on the load side of the SACD player's safety fuse then the small wires of the ICs would be in series with the ground fault current that is flowing back to the source, the electrical panel. If the hot to chassis fault is a bolted fault, solid connection dead short, depending on the ampere rating and fuse, and type of the fuse, fast blow, slow blow, the current will exceed the ampere rating of the fuse briefly before it will blow and break the ground fault circuit. Will the small signal ground wires of the ICs be able to handle the current long enough until the fuse blows? Don't know. But more than likely the fuse would in the SACD player. More than likely not for the fuse in a power amp. If the fuse doesn't first blow and the small signal ground wires in the ICs burn free at the RCA connector/s the chassis of the SACD player will be HOT, energized. Danger Will Robinson!

So the small signal ground wires in the ICs might handle the current flow long enough until the fuse blows. What if there is a hot wire to ground, ground fault on the line side of the fuse?
The fault current on a 15 amp branch circuit can easily shoot up well over 100 amps. Will the 15 amp breaker trip open? Good chance no. The small signal ground wires in the ICs will melt, burn free, first at the RCA connectors. The high current may also damage wiring or circuit trace in the SACD player. Depends on the circuit design. The SACD player chassis will be hot.

What are the odds of a hot to chassis or hot to the lifted equipment grounding conductor of the power cord used on the SACD? Slim at best. But as always, what if? (For an aftermarket power cord that is not safety tested, Listed, by any recognized third party testing Lab, such as UL, who can say what could happen.

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I think the 15 amp convenience outlet branch circuit is just as much to blame for the ground loop hum as the SACD player. You already know there is garbage, high frequency harmonics noise on the branch circuit by the sound of the buzz. Possible causes? Light dimmers, CFL , LED, lights. Electronic ballasts. Cheap switch mode power supplies. Not saying that is the cause of the ground loop. But it can't help with how the SACD payer sounds though.

You might consider hiring an electrician and having another dedicated branch circuit installed. Or have an electrician add another duplex receptacle wall outlet to the existing dedicated branch circuit.

If you are going to continue using the ground cheater on the SACD player's power cord, for electrical safety, you might want to consider running a #14awg ground wire from the ground lug on the SACD player and connect it to the equipment ground of the dedicated branch circuit. Sort of cheating but it would do the job. It would provide a path for the ground fault current to return the source and cause the 15 amp breaker to trip open.

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Uh.. yup! But- guess not.

(emphasis added) Exactly. Fix either one and no more ground loop. Its a bit surprising to see something like that without the ground pin of the IEC connected. How in the heck do they ship into a market like the EU?? That sort of thing is illegal there - you can't get the CE mark with an IEC that's ungrounded.

Our equipment has certainly been blamed in the past. But whether our amps and our preamp are on one line or two and on fairly efficient loudspeakers (my speakers at home are 98dB) there's no buzz or hum. But I made sure our stuff is grounded properly, so these days its pretty hard to catch a buzz with it. But its possible for a source to mess with the grounding scheme on any preamp (as is happening in the topic of this thread) although in our case that might only be a ground loop between the preamp and source. The amps can't do it because like I said, it takes two to tango. But we've seen high end audio balanced cables where the shell of the XLR connector is tied to pin 1; in some cases that can introduce a ground loop if our amps are then also hooked up to something like an ARC balanced preamp which doesn't support the balanced standard. One of the reasons for going balanced is to eliminate ground loops but it doesn't work if the standard (AES48) is ignored; rather common in high end audio...

 

Because you said (I thought) that there was no problem until you added that component. Other than that I have no specific knowledge about that component. Ground loops are tricky, placement can make a big difference for example.

 

At first I though the unit might be Class II double insulated rated. Even then a 2 wire IEC inlet connector should have been used. The 3 wire grounding type inlet would be deceiving to the user though.

Class II

Class II symbol

A Class II or double insulated electrical appliance is one which has been designed in such a way that it does not require a safety connection to electrical earth (ground).

The basic requirement is that no single failure can result in dangerous voltage becoming exposed so that it might cause an electric shock and that this is achieved without relying on an earthed metal casing. This is usually achieved at least in part by having at least two layers of insulating material between live parts and the user, or by using reinforced insulation.

In Europe, a double insulated appliance must be labelled Class II or double insulated or bear the double insulation symbol (a square inside another square).
Appliance classes - Wikipedia
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Not sure if this is the same unit.

Emotiva Audio ERC-3 Balanced CD Player & Transport
https://www.amazon.com/Emotiva-Audio-ERC-3-Balanced-Transport/dp/B00JRH8EY6

Zoom in on the back of the unit.

Note the unit is ce certified. (Good chance it would not meet UL minimum safety standards)

Not sure what the FC with a small c inside the big C means.

ce rating:

What is CE Marking (CE mark)?

Not NRTL recognized
Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs) | Current List of NRTLs | Occupational Safety and Health Administration

No law that I know of that says the unit can't be sold in the US. Not sure about Canada.

 

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EDIT:

Should have said for a temporary fix only. Not a permanent solution.


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All very interesting, unfortunately this is regarding an Emotiva Player...and mine is an Esoteric...very different gear, imo.

 

I am not going to be using cheater plugs; in this instance, I utilized them to determine if by removing the ground lug and therefore floating ground, if the issue would go away...and sure enough it did. To use them permanently is a no go for me.
Talking again to my dealer today, he suspects it is a possibility that one of the components might be giving off some dc current...possibly the SACD player, but it could be something else too. Either way, he too suggested listening with my Rowland, as he tells me it has a different grounding scheme...and/or plugging everything into the dedicated line.
The all on the dedicated line is going to happen, as soon as I have the chance to rearrange my room to accomplish this...ugh.

 

Your dealer is wrong. DC has nothing to do with this- the behavior would be entirely different. Transformers (Jensens as I suggested- just keep one of the interconnect cables really short) at the outputs of the Esoteric seem the best course of action since its unlikely that TEAC will do anything about it. I suspect the Jadis could be fixed (we've done things like that before) but shipping them is not a nice thought and wherever you send them to get sorted, it won't be Jadis. I suspect they wouldn't understand the complaint.

One thing is certain- when the ground loop is solved the system will sound better.

 

Thanks, Ralph. The dealer thought it may be a small problem with a cap or resistor leaking DC into the line. I am pleased that you think this is unlikely, as I wasn't happy about a problem like that in a newly purchased unit. there is no question that once the dreaded 'buzz' is resolved the system will sound better. I hear that even with the cheater plugs, when they were in use.

 

When troubleshooting there are certain rules. Let's invoke one of them now. Try just one cheater plug on the SACD, just to verify that this sorts it out. If yes, it will certainly verify that DC isn't a problem and that both the SACD and the amps are vulnerable to ground loop problems due to poor internal grounding practice.

 

I think when DaveyF finds the time to get everything on one line with proper distribution, and reports back what he finds, that will reveal a lot. Until then many of these suggestions may or many not hep and if they do will be band aid fixes that will lower fidelity, especially the transformers and another set of cables. That is a non starter imo.

 

@DaveyF

Do you know what type of wiring material was used for wiring the 15 amp convenience outlet branch circuit the Esoteric and preamp are plugged into?

Romex?
EMT conduit?
2 wire with ground MC metallic armored cable?
http://www.afcweb.com/mc-metal-clad-cables/mc-lite-aluminum-armored-cable/

Wires pulled loosely, randomly, in a conduit is the one of the biggest causes of ground loops.
The load current carrying hot and neutral conductors magnetic fields will induce a voltage onto the equipment grounding conductor.

Read pages 31 through 37.
https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf

SPEAKING OF THE PREAMP.
Does the preamp have a 3 wire grounding type cord and plug. If the preamp has an IEC inlet connector is it a 3 wire grounding type?


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How about getting another Esoteric player from your dealer or get a different name brand SACD player and see if that solves the problem.

 

I'm not a fan of transformers myself. But they have their place and fixing ground loops is one of them. But it would be better if the SACD simply didn't have this problem.

Its pretty obvious that the AC power isn't the issue although I agree that conduit has its problems. In this case the system is silent if the SACD is removed; since we know already that the Jadis has a poor internal grounding scheme, it then follows that if the CAT had a similar problem it would have ground loop noise without anything else connected. Its silent, so off the hook.

 

I agree your solution would fix the ground loop issue, I am just pretty sure it lower the overall fidelity as well.

 

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jea48 said, post #96:

The CAT!! My bad for not following the thread more closely. The CAT, the preamp.

Agree.
The CAT Preamp is fed from the convenience outlet branch circuit and the Jadis amps are fed from the dedicated branch circuit.

If the CAT preamp uses the equipment ground, (and I assume it does), with the ground cheaters removed from the Jadis mono amps if there was a difference of potential between the two equipment grounds of the two branch circuits there would be a ground loop and hum/buzz.
With the SACD removed there isn't any hum/buzz.


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Is this the CAT preamp?
This is the Mark 2 version.
SoundStage! Equipment Review - Convergent Audio Technology SL1 Ultimate Mk 2 Preamplifier (6/2007)

I notice it has an outboard power supply. Any idea how the designer treated the equipment ground and the B- side of the power supply? (I assume the unit uses the equipment ground and is not Class II power rated.) No doubt the equipment ground is connected to the chassis of the outboard power supply. Is the equipment ground also normally extended and bonded to the chassis of the preamp? I'm just trying to verify there is some kind of reference between the circuit ground of the preamp and the mains power equipment ground.

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