Guitar amp guys - what's your take on the Vintage Sound V20?

I have been looking for a vintage Princeton Reverb, most likely a Silverface that I might have modded or at least restored. Don't want to pay Blackface prices. I'm not into early breakup. I want a tube amp that is very portable but loud enough for a Jazz gig with a drummer in a small club. I have other amps (Blackface Pro Reverb among others) for gigs when I need more power. I figured I would be at least be having a tech go through it, possibly replace some caps and tubes, and maybe put in a speaker that would give me a little more headroom.

I played through a new Princeton Reverb ('68) and it seems to me that Fender is trying for earlier breakup. I didn't plug into input #2, maybe that would solve the problem...

Buying a vintage Fender amp is a solid investment, since it will never be worth less that what I pay for it, unless I do something that can't be reversed and destroy its value.

A Vintage Sound V20 just showed up on Craigslist. It has a Warehouse G12 C/S speaker. I have not played through it yet. Asking price $1250.

I have read some great things about this amp. My concern is that if I want to sell it 5 or 10 years down the road, it will be worth a lot less money. On the other hand, as time goes on, people could realize what a great amp is is and it could be desirable. Do old Carr, Victoria, Matchless and Dr. Z amps hold their value (I have not taken the time to research this)?

Should I just hold off and keep looking for a Vintage Fender? I don't think I want to buy a new one or a "used new one"...I'm not in a big hurry

 

I know nothing about the Vintage Sound, but I can pretty much guarantee that vintage Fender amps will retain/increase their value for some time in the foreseeable future.

 

There's no right or wrong. All depends on what you're after but if you're after clean with plenty of headroom, you need more power.

Highly recommend you check out a Fender Deluxe. Much better amp than a Princeton and only a few pounds heavier.

As for the breakup, that depends on a few factors. If the tubes are biased hot, breakup will occur sooner. Which tubes are used also affects the sound in that way. Some tubes have plenty of gain and stay clean much longer while others won't. Also, some speakers will breakup sooner as well so a change could also help.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with the Vintage Sound V20. Not at all. You'd be paying a lot of money for an amp design I never considered to be great to begin with, with few exceptions clones don't go up in price, and you'll have a harder time selling it if/when you want to part with it. It's already lost 26% of its value.

For the same amount, you can get either a brand new Deluxe with a warranty or a Silverface 70s model, both of which will sell closer to what you paid than a clone. My 2 cents.

 

Ever check out the early to mid 1980s Fender Rivera era amps? They were reissues of Fender's famous blackfaced 1960s amps - but with cool improvements and mods. Most of them have an added volume stage so that they ended up with 3 volume knobs. This feature was cool because you can turn up the input stage while turning down the output stage 'til it distorts as much or as little as you want, while controlling the overall volume at a comfortable level. It's kind of like having a "power soak" feature built into the amps. Get as much or as little of the over-driven harmonics/distortion goodness that comes from vintage Fender amps running at near maximum volume - but do it at a lower sound level suitable for home practice. Built like '60s Fender amps with tubes and point to point wiring - and they look like '60s Fender blackfaced amps. Also, they sell for a lot less than vintage '60s Fender blackfaced amps. You might need to be patient to find one in good condition at a decent price.

I have a '83 Rivera era Twin Reverb II that is killer but weighs a ton - immovable. Wish I had a Rivera era Princeton Reverb II or Deluxe Reverb II. I also have a great original '67 Princeton Reverb blackface but kinda wish it was a Rivera era Princeton Reverb II with the extra volume control.

Info:
Fender Rivera Era amps - Google Search

Rivera era amps currently for sale on Reverb.com:
"fender rivera era" Gear

 

I have not auditioned the V20, so I can not voice an opinion on it. The Princeton would be a perfect amp for Jazz gigs, but go with the original Princeton, not the '68 version. The '65 Princeton has headroom and "voicing" for clean guitar, and in my opinion breaks up just right for a slightly overdriven sound. If more volume is needed, and deeper bass, go with the '65 Deluxe Reverb reissue. Channel 1 is articulate with lots of fatness, perfect for any hollow body jazz guitar. Channel 2 isn't as articulate, but more "crisp" on top and of course that famous lush Fender reverb.

The Princeton amp (no reverb) sounds a lot like the Deluxe Reverb on channel 1.
The Princeton Reverb is more like channel 2
Even though they are both Princeton amps, their circuitry and sound are different.

Advice: For Jazz guitar, Go with the '65 Princeton amp, not the Princeton reverb.

 

Great posts.

Have an old Kramer, need to know what is a great amp as well.
I’ll b watching,this forum.
Had a small amp , it was 12”x12” small amp, Amd am looking for a good descent inexpensive amp

 

What will you be using the amp for? Playing at home? Gigging? if you gig what types of music and venues? What is your budget?

 

Vintage Fenders, especially blackface amps in good shape, sell for crazy money now. Not sure how much more they will appreciate. Even silver face Fenders from the 70's are now selling for good money but may still have some room to appreciate.

If you want a vintage Fender with some headroom I would consider a Silver Face Deluxe or Deluxe Reverb. They have more power than the Princeton you can crank them more before they breakup and they don't need much work to "blackface" them as their circuit is very close to a blackface. As someoe mentioned they are not that much heavier than a Princeton so will not break your back to carry them around. They have gone up in price but are about 1/2 the price of a similar blackface amp.

I have a 1975 Deluxe Reverb Silverface in excellent condition I bought off ebay about 10 years ago for $800 which I could probably sell for $1200-1600 if I wanted to so they have appreciated in value but not to the level of the backface versions.

Here is a great page on the Deluxe Reverb

BF/SF Deluxe Reverb | fenderguru.com

New Fender reissues can sound decent once you breakin the speaker but IMHO they will never hold their value but on the other side of the coin you can get some good deals on used ones if you are patient.

Carr, Vics, Dr. Z etc make fantatic sounding amps and you can't go wrong with one of them that fits your needs. they hold their value pretty well but I am not sure they will ever apprecite much as long as those companies are still in business making amps.

Good luck on your hunt!

 

Vintage Sound? The problem with the non Fender/Marshall amps are that they may be worth peanuts in the future. No one has a crystal ball. It may be a great sounding amp, but if it becomes unpopular years down the road, you could lose hundreds on it, if you can even find someone that’s willing to buy it. Maybe that’s not important to you, you need to decide that. Over the years, I’ve only collected Fenders and Marshalls, and now I’m down to about a dozen amps (plus a Trainwreck clone I’ve been building for a while, but need to wrap that project up). I’m confident that every one of those amps will return what I paid for it, or return a profit when I go to sell. It’s the excuse I make for the hobby, “it’s not just an amp, it’s an investment!”

 

Thanks for all the input - what I want is to walk into a small club with my guitar in one hand and my amp in the other, and be able to play clean (as clean as George Benson sounded with Brother Jack McDuff - which actually isn't all that clean) Jazz with a drummer. A Deluxe is too big for this, unless maybe I put I neodymium speaker in it. I think a Princeton Reverb (I am not interested in a Princeton without Reverb, I want the extra gain stage, as well as the Reverb) with a high efficiency, high headroom speaker, would do the trick, as well as good choices for tubes and biasing. I know about the Polytones and Henricksens but that is not the sound I want. My Princeton Reverb would also probably be great cranked for a breakup sound at a louder rock gig. But I already have a Korg era AC15 TBX with a Celestion Blue for that (and that's a little heavy for one trip from the car to the club). My budget is around $1500 taking into account tech time, and possible tube and speaker replacement.

I've had a three volume control amp (Mesa Boogie Mark II) - not my sound, but I liked the clean sound of that amp. I have seen the Rivera era amps and they look great, I would consider it if it I came across one. I've also looked at Super Champs - expensive!

I think what I will do is keep my eye out for a 70s Silverface Princeton Reverb. I have asked folks in my"community" here in the Denver area to keep an eye out for me, as well as Craigslist searches.

Thanks again for the responses.

 

Fender Champ 12 blackface red knob, two-channel, on eBay right now at the bottom of the market. Couldn't get cheaper or uglier than that. The big speaker is going to take 5W easy without breakup.

Maybe you want something more like a Peavey Classic 30 if you need louder clean. Four output tubes instead of one and more versatile sound, I've got this same USA-made one, although it can get dirtier than he shows:



Champ 57 tweed reissue from 2009- if you want smaller than a 12" that isn't going to go down in value.

 

FYI - I have a 1977 Silverface Princeton Reverb. I dropped a Celestion G10 Gold into it. Increased the volume level a little over the stock speaker, and tightened up the sound. And, I was able to save the original speaker for when the day comes to sell the amp (people like buying amps with the original speaker). A recommended upgrade!

 

Currently for sale on Reverb.com...
"Silverface Princeton Reverb" Gear
(Scroll down the page through the tube sections and also check the 2nd page.)

 

Unless you are going to mic through a PA I am not sure the Princeton would play loud enough clean for your needs in a club setting? I never tried this but based on experience the Princeton might start breaking up before you get sufficient volume?

Regarding speakers, they can have a big impact on your amps sound so keep that in mind if you decide to swap speakers.

The nice thing about Princeton's are they are 6V6 power tube based and you can still get matched pairs of NOS vintage RCA's and other brand name NOS for < $150 which sound sweet.

 

Nice tutorial on speaker selection

How to select speakers | fenderguru.com

 

Not sure why you don’t just take the Pro Reverb on these gigs? Too heavy and big? I have a 65 Deluxe Reverb reissue that I bought 25 years ago. Works fine on jazz gigs if the drummer isn’t too loud. Can be carried in one hand at least in my younger days. I believe the amp at Rudy Van Gelder’s studio was a tweed Deluxe. More recently bought a Rivera R30 112 combo which is light enough and even smaller. Warmer sounding with the EL34s in it and I like it too. Have played through some Rivera era Fender amps and liked them all.

 

Hadn't thought of a Red Knob Champ 12 - is that a circuit board amp? I guess I am a snob but I can't picture myself showing up at Jazz gig with a Peavy, I know they make great stuff and great value. Yes the Pro is a bit much with an arch top in it's hardshell case in my other hand. Maybe I should get a gig bag...

 

If you buy a vintage amp and blow up a driver or transformer or it gets in an accident, you are out a lot of its value, if you are honest and don't resort to fakery.
A new boutique amp built by a reputable vendor will depreciate some but if you are a working musician there are tax reasons to buy new, and it will be much more trouble free, and authenticity does not matter much.

If you are the DIY sort you can build a clone, it won't have much resale value but you won't have as much in it and can build exactly what you want.

The future value of vintage Fender or Marshall amps is something no one can really predict. They could go Full Ferrari and bring stupid money or they could peter out like most film cameras or like brass era cars or what have you. But if you are a musician, you need a tool to play your music with and you do not want to have to think about that. If I had a real tweed or blackface Fender I wouldn't want to play out with it, because I would worry that it could fall off the dock, get stolen, kicked by a drunk, or whatever. It would stay at the house and the clone would be what I'd gig with. Plus I'm a tinkerer/hot rodder by nature and like swapping stuff out, changing circuits, that kind of thing.

 

You've got a Pro Reverb?! ... don't bother with any of the other amps. The absolute sweet spot in the vintage Fender lineup. I used two of those on several dates of a European tour, they were fantastic. Weaned me off AC30's.

 

Home practice/fun,
Gary Moore, rock, metal,etc etc...

 

Yep, circuit board, as anything reasonably priced old or new would be. It's got more tone options than an original Champ, like you can dial down the amp bass and dial down the guitar tone for that warm but never overdriven jazz sound. Since people mod them to make them brighter and distort more like a Fender, it probably sounds like what you'd want as-built. I can only say that this one's no worse than many other Fenders, and you don't have to pay $2500 for the custom shop to kick the box down the stairs to relic one up.

The Classic 30 is pretty much a staple for those in the know; in newer Mexican tweed it's a lot more jazzy-bluesy-looking then a Fender x-face. Give it a Google.

(I've more respect for the guy that shows up with a converted organ amp and a Jensen screwed into an old suitcase, than one who has another artist's signature guitar and a Marshall stack, but can't get the sound he's attempting because the wall of Marshalls he wants to copy was fake and the real amp was in an iso box under the stage...)

Absolute steals right now are Crate tube amps just because brand snob people slag them off, and screamo kiddies that can afford them expect them to make metal. Under $300 you might get a 60W 2x12 combo with a full size Accutronics tube-driven reverb, pop-free LDR channel switching, made in America with good quality circuit boards and Russian birch plywood.

We all can point and laugh at Line 6s, though.

 

I had a vintage sound Princeton rep a few years ago - it was OK. Mine had a problem with the reverb out of the box because it was built incorrectly so the builder fixed it. There are tons of people out there making fender replicas, the circuits are not difficult to copy. But not everyone knows how to make a truly great sounding amp that matches or surpasses the originals.

Louis Electric does. Guy made amps for Danny Gatton, Hubert Sumlin, and Keith Richards. His blackface amplifiers are fantastic. Used you can get one for a little bit more than your $1500 budget, which I’d highly recommend over the Vintage Sound or a Silverface, which don’t sound as good as the blackface amps, and are still 40 years old - could give you problems on gigs and you don’t know if they’ve been futzed with.

Google Louis Electric amps, you’ll be glad you did.

 

great input here - I'm not a "working musician" just a part time hack, so the "investment value" has some meaning, also related to the WAF. I'm going to wait and see what falls out of the sky, I have put out a lot of energy to my my Denver area contacts and will keep monitoring Craigslist. I'm going to play the V20 tomorrow, the guy lives really close to me.

I do love my Pro Reverb, but it doesn't take the place of my VOX amps - I also have a vintage AC30 and rarely get to play it a reasonable volume, but it is one sweet amp. bhazen, what speakers do you like in your Pro?

I am familiar with Louis Electric, but have never played through one

 

Forgot to add link: Columbia Reverb Amp

 

I'm going to toss out a recommendation here that is for a "recent" amp that is no longer manufactured but can be found: Fender Jazzmaster Ultra-light amp and speaker. I have a "SE" one that is only one (clean) channel though the basic model is a two channel, one clean, one with distortion and effects.

This is a powerful solid state/digital amp that surprised the living heck out of me as sounding clear and clean and bell-like, a very compatible jazz guitar sound that I would swear had tubes behind it. The "head" magnetically couples to the speaker cabinet and together they are both light enough that a normal guy can carry them without much strain and effort. I've enjoyed the heck out of mine. Replaced a few tube amps in use that I never thought would gather dust.

https://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/fender-jazzmaster-ultralight







They have really nice padded cases for them, the head with a carrying strap and it's very easy to carry both at the same time for a good distance.