Gyrodec Suspsension

Hello,

I recently purchased and set up a Michell Gyrodec on Saturday. My first turntable I have set up. Overall I'm happy but just not sure if I'm driving myself stir crazy fretting over the suspension.

It is on an Apollo Hi-Fi stand which prior to setting up the Gyro was level. I then checked each level as I built the Gyrodec up. So, placed the chassis on the spring and it was level as the springs were on the support mounts at more or less the same height on all three as per the instructions.

I then place the platter on top, made some adjustments to get the chassis 1-2mm from the base as per instructions and all was good. Checked the platter was level and off I went, listening happily away for a good few hours to my new system.

Then I started reading about this suspension online. Noticed one video where one guys suspension seemed to bounced up and down perfectly vertical for what seemed forever. When I checked mine didn't seem to be quite like that and a little bit side to side. Now I'm getting a bit anal about it, did some adjusting of the spring etc. rechecked how level everything was and it does have a sort of vertical bounce to it but not as obvious as what I have seen.

Originally when I bounced it I could hear it catch the motor housing slightly which wasn't a good sign and now it doesn't which tells me it's not moving drastically side to side or anything but still...now I'm paranoid!!

Anyone with experience of just how worried about this I should be? After I first set it up I was elated and bouncing off the walls with it...now after reading forums etc. about this it's driving me mad!

 

Hi there! First of all, enjoy your new table. It's a beauty!

Don't worry if you don't get the suspension 100% vertically bouncing. I've also noticed that I'll have a teensy little bit side play, especially in the tail end of the bounce; i.e. when the vibrating starts to wane.

It's good to check the level of each component: base, spider and platter! When adjusting the springs, you'll notice when looking from above that they are not fully centered in the middle of their holes. That's on purpose. Vertical bounce can be achieved by positioning/rotating the top of the springs outwards from the spindle.

You have a small silver knob on top of each spring to set the height of each spring. Independently, you can rotate the spring itself (touch it at the metal at the black part on the side; not the silver knob just on top) to set this 'assymetry'. When you do this, slightly lift the chassis, so that it does not cause too much friction. I achieve the right bounce the fastest when after rotating the springs, I check again the level of the platter with a bubble meter. Rotating the springs while keeping the platter level and you'll get there eventually.

Furthermore, what also helps is playing around a little bit with the hanging of your tonearm cable. It should not cause a 'gravitational' force that will impact the bouncing of the chassis.

I hope this helps! An explanation in words might be somewhate cryptic, but once you have the 'aha-moment', it'll become clear and straightforward very fast.

 

Thank you for coming back to me - I'll have to look at the springs more closely from above and rotate so the top of the spring is furthest away from the spindle i.e outwards.

Currently my understanding is that the 'knurled' bit at the top of the silver pillar raises and lower the chassis and to adjust the springs you hold this firm and rotate the black grommet?

 

You definitely need to be sure the unit is equally clear of all sides of the motor housing first. Then adjust the springs as our friend clercqie has stated. Other than some patience with adjusting the springs, the biggest issue will be with the tonearm wiring as that will effect the tension and resonance of the whole system in all axis. It should be ass free to move with the suspension as possible. Also, it will be best to do this with a record on the platter and any clamp or weight if you will be using one. I find most of those to fiddly on a regular basis, so I'd skip that, but that's just me. If you find after getting it all set-up and enjoying the sound of it, yet still frustrated by the instability of the springs whether do to handling or footfalls, then you might consider replacing the springs with a rubber suspension.

-Bill

 

Thanks Bill.

I can live with the movement I think it's the mental block of whether it's correct or not? Then the doubt in your mind, yes it sounds great but does it sound as good as it could!

I did find it funny in the instructions it says adjust until you get the 'correct' bounce but doesn't state what that correct bounce is or looks like, so how do you know. It is quite a vague area.

 

Vertical is correct. That means equal resistance to vertical motion on all points across the plane of the base. You are correct that it doesn't matter so much for listening in a still environment as it will sound about the same when there is no challenge presented to it. It's when there are some more severe external vibrations that may cause the suspension to oscillate that having the suspension tuned to react in only the vertical plane is useful. The problem with spring suspended designs of this type (compression springs) is that the chassis can really only be well isolated this way in the vertical plane, and then only on some surfaces. Horizontal and diagonal forces will upset it. That's why the move to a true suspended design such as the rubber one I illustrated can offer improvements. They allow more planes of freedom and are more readily self centering on multiple planes. They are less likely to oscillate as well. The other solution is a non-suspended deck, which of course eliminates those issues entirely. There are simply more than a couple ways to tackle the problem of vibration in turntable operation and some are more simple than others. You have chosen a machine that utilizes a more complex method, so optimizing that may be as well.
-Bill

 

Congrats, you just got a great turntable- the GyroDec is a killer soundwise. I've had my Gyro SE for over 12 years and even if I got an Orbe SE a little over 2 years ago I kept my Gyro.

Please don't overdo and worry to much about that bounce thing- the most important thing is to get the platter level and to make the chassis stay free from the motor housing as mentioned above. Leave the three spring covers of during the time while experimenting with finding a level where the bounce is as vertical as possible. If you want any more support or have any questions regarding the setup please PM me.

 

Yep, exactly right!

 

Welcome to the Gyrodec owners world. It is fantastic deck and there are numerous upgrade possibilities!
If you want to get rid of the “bounce anxiety” and get even better sound you could switch to Pete’s Pylon suspension, replacing springs with intertwined o-rings. You can get them here True Point Audio check for Mitchell upgrades.

You can read about them and more in this thread Michell Gyro Owners

 

I am familiar with Linn,/ thorens
Suspension.
As I understand Michell design philosophy. The arm base is machined to
Ensure correct weight on spring.
So unit should be a doddle to set.
Adjustment generally sets platter
Height.
On TD150 I set using a piece of 'keysteel'
Set between underside of platter and top plate.
This is more reliable than spirit level.
Now, once height is set bounce can be checked.
Its usual on TD150 to set platter height with a record on platter and test bounce
With platter running

One thing important on TD150
Is belt length. I assume it will be same on Gyrodeck.
This is because if belt is too short
Then as motor is nailed firmly to top plate and platter to subchassis
Then a tight,( short) belt will pull arm board and suspension and result in
Sideways movement when bouncing test
Is attempted.
The answer of course is to rotate spring
A bit at a time.
With a long arm board such as Linn LP12
Or TD150 rotating the springs will affect armboard being square in aperture.
Easily seen.
On gyrodeck not so obvious.
Still with turntable running try tapping platter close to area where spring is located.
When moving spring there will be one

Position where bounce is really floppy
That's it really.
A good bounce occurs when all 3 springs
Are working together.

 

Thank you all for your help.

Last night I stripped it back down and reset the springs on the 'towers'. I ended up putting it together and taking it apart several times trying slightly different methods.

In the end, as per the instructions I set the springs with 5mm of screw thread showing above on each tower. Place the chassis on, I then twisted just the knurled part to rotate the towers and lowered it to about 1-2mm above the foam washers. Initially I think it was a little higher than this and now the belt looks more level with the platter. I then rotated the springs by holding the knurled section and tried a few methods as detailed on here and by others. I definitely haven't got a perfect up and down 'bounce' but it looks a bit better. The thread distances on the towers are also roughly similar and the platter appears level from each angle I place my level (need to buy a better turntable level).

I'm inclined to stop at this point and go with it.

Tweaking is causing me further paranoia than it's worth...I managed to drip some of the oil onto the chassis so needed to do some cleaning, then oil leaked out of the spindle shaft when I laid it to one side onto some furtniture, and now I keep fretting that one of the ball bearings out of the spring towers or spindle might have fallen out somehow despite checking them constantly Think I'm going round the bend...

 

Michell are supposed to be introducing new springs. I was told later this year at the bristol show. Am I the only one who finds the split spring towers with ball bearings harder to adjust than the original design used up till early 00's ? If same as me the ball bearings stick in the shaft over time and will not drop out.

 

Anyone with a Gyrodec can empathize with your plight as we have all been there to a greater or lesser extent, however you risk taking the good out of what should be a really happy moment and a chance to enjoy a beautiful deck that will give you years of enjoyment if you let it.

Stop fiddling for a week or so and get to know the Gyro. You will end up breaking something if you continue like this. Enjoy the music and then see if you can improve the bounce further down the line. It is important to get it right, mostly for your own peace of mind as psychoacoustics do play a part in our enjoyment, but believe me, the gyro always sounds good and the difference soundwise between pretty good and excellent vertical bounce is not night and day so stop fretting that you are missing out on the real listening experience.

One more thing. The design is brilliant as it is. John Michell was a genius, so think twice before you start swopping out the springs for pylons etc, especially as you have only just bought your Gyro. Enjoy.

 

I agree with everything you say. But, I can say with great confidence that the pylons are even more genius than original springs. I bought my GyroSE new and I waited a week or so before swapping to pylons, just to get used to the sound. I thought that the gyro was great with the springs but with the pylons is was suddenly at a level that I thought wouldn’t be possible.

 

Also the Gyro/Orbe is endlessly tweakable and upgradable in the future....

The True Point Pylons are a must just to see what this deck is capable of.

 

The Pylons take the Gyro to another level.

As much as John Michell was a genius, it's not even close. I've owned my Gyro for 35 years and done almost all of the Michell modular changes/upgrades in that time period and they pale in significance to the improvements the pylons make to the table.

 

I really would advise stick with the springs for a good while till you are familiar with the sonic qualities of the deck. I'm not entirely convinced by the pylons especially as there have been issues due to variations that don't matter with the springs. I may be tempted to try them at some stage but am waiting to see what Michell come up with. They've been spending a lot of time developing their own cartridges which don't look too competitively priced to me. Also I am told there is going to be a new arm to fill gap left by SME but they don't do anything at pace due to the lack of specific engineering expertise on tap.

 

@ Classicrock- comparing the standard springs to The True Point Pylons is like comparing Hamburgers to Tenderloin Beef so far ahead are the Pylons.

 

It will be indeed dry interesting to see if they step away from the classic springs or not. Pylons are in many ways superior to springs on a 3 or 4 leg design. SQ is amazing, but it is also very robust. However you do need DIY-fingers to do it yourself. I think the SME TT’s also use them. I never have to worry about adjustment or wobble. In fact together with the Orbe clamp it is the most carefree (and by far the best) deck I ever had. It is not even VTA sensitive anymore, as all my previous decks were, record on and listen - genius!

But there is no hurry of course, upgrading is always fun, also later.

 

Okay so I'm happy with there I have got too - platter is 99% level and it bounces in a way that at least doesn't seem completely incorrect.

I did see the 'Pylons' when doing research even before I purchased the Gyro. Interesting design, do these essentially suspend the deck in a fixed position and therefore remove any suspension? Or do they just provide a fixed and therefore non adjustable suspension?

I know there are a lot of good reports about these but you would have thought Michell would have thought of doing this if it is preferential, it's quite an obvious solution.

I think my only observation of buying and building a Gyro is that the springs/suspension is an area that either could be made more straight forward either mechanically or with a bit more instruction about what you need to ideally achieve and how to get there.

 

So far I see no description of the differences rather than 'night and day' claims.. Also they need to be as effective as claimed on an Orbe as well as Gyro. Perhaps a Youtube video of springs v pylons could be produced. I'm sure any obvious differences would be audible even through digital compression.

 

I agree. I want to see and/or hear a review before buying. These pylons have been around for quite long time now and I don't really understand why no one can present an Youtube video and/or a serious review about this product.

 

Neither; they provide a similar suspension range and are adjustable for height and level. If you will have a look at the photo of each that I posted, you can compare the two and see that they have essentially the same function, and that the steel can be replaced with rubber. But in the actual picture here, I believe it is a cording rather than rubber o-rings. That should be more rigid, changing the frequency of the suspension by quite a bit. That would offer near equal horizontal isolation without being prone to oscillation, but still less compliant than the steel or rubber versions.

Steel is fine for its vertical axis performance, it just doesn't hold a horizontal one well. Perhaps steel was chosen as being longer lasting and not infringing on the SME design, although I don't really know which was first. No matter, it's a basic enough mechanical principle not to violate any trade laws as long as it looks or operates, of changes materials slightly. Neither company invented the concept, just their implementation. Sota uses a similar inverted spring suspension.
-Bill

 

SME decks came long after Michell by over a decade. SME are dropping rubber rings on their latest models. The design of the SME decks is overall quite different than Michell. SME actually developed the V arm using early Gyro.

 

Using a Gyro as a platform you mean? I don't see one as being a refinement of the other, actually quite different. They do use similar mechanical principles for their designs, but so do most other decks.
-Bill