Hammer's "Horror of Dracula" available for pre-order from Warner Archive!

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by wayneklein, Nov 22, 2018.

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  1. wayneklein

    wayneklein Forum Fool Thread Starter

    Although I've had the UK release for a while now, "Horror of Dracula" is finally available for pre-order. I'm interested in seeing how Warner restored this vs. the UK one (which had some controversy on the restoration by both the BFI and Hammer). I kind of doubt there will be much in the way of special features (so will be keeping my UK for that) but I do want to see what they do with the title.
     
  2. HELLOLARRY

    HELLOLARRY Forum Resident

    What was the controversy with the UK restoration? There is a more complete ending in the UK version than the US right - some minor scenes edited and the death scene is longer? It's my favorite of the Hammer Dracula's and I'm looking forward to seeing this one.
     
  3. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    This has been my favorite as well from what I've seen on TCM several years ago. It's one of the best British Technicolor restorations I've come across. It has a very painterly color palette. Loved it so much viewed on my eyeball calibrated Samsung HDtv I took pictures of it. And then I was very disappointed in the color of the subsequent '60's & '70's series of Christopher Lee Dracula movies.

    The thing is I'm finding on a Google image search two different color renderings of this movie...

    [​IMG]

    Or this one...
    [​IMG]

    I think the top one's sickly cyan cast is what I saw in reruns during the '70's and has much more impact and is creepier.
     
  4. wayneklein

    wayneklein Forum Fool Thread Starter

    The choice for the color and color timing of the film. The restoration goes to the cooler side of things which, reportedly, doesn't resemble any of the existing prints of the film. Supposedly even the DVD version of the film from Warner looks more like the original film did (or even stills but, having said that, it is tough to judge what exactly you're trying to achieve sometimes from existing prints, interpositives and even faded negatives).

    Unfortunately, with this restoration I doubt we will get the addition of the footage shot for the film and cut for the UK (and if I recall correctly the U.S.) market.

    I doubt we will get much in the way of special features as usually Warner Archive will only include any previous special features and/or the trailer and the latter was the only thing we got on the DVD. The good news is that means that most of the money would be spent on accessing the best source material that Warner has and also the restoration.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
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  5. wayneklein

    wayneklein Forum Fool Thread Starter

    Part of the difference between the earlier films (including "Brides of Dracula") is the use of the richer color techniques developed by Technicolor, i.e., I can't remember but Marc (@Vidiot) would know the technical specs of a late 1950's film shot in Technicolor and this was before they resorted to the cheaper "Hammerscope" (as I recall) where they would use half of a 35mm frame to save money but resulted in a massive level of grain). The newer films used the technique typical of color film development of the time which resulted is less rich colors.

    I know a little bit about this type of stuff but the area I studied at UCLA focused more on writing/direction and editing rather than cinematography, etc.
     
  6. wayneklein

    wayneklein Forum Fool Thread Starter

    I guess the big question is--which version of "(Horror of) Dracula" will we be getting? Not just in terms of the print/released version to the U.S. but how complete, etc. I grew up watching the U.S. version so I'm used to it but the minor differences between the UK, Japanese and U.S. version add up to more explicit scenes scenes in terms of Dracula's death, biting his victim, etc. The staking scene for example in the U.S. version is longer and a bit more graphic than the UK version (as originally released).
    Horror of Dracula (1958) - Alternate Versions - IMDb



    A bit of trivia--the name change to "Horror of Dracula" for the U.S. was because Universal had re-released "Dracula" with "Frankenstein" to theaters as a double bill again in that year. Warner was concerned about the title confusion as well as possible litigation over the title since it was concerned that, because they had copyrighted the film with the registered "Dracula" title, that they might possibly sue which would prevent the film from being released.
     
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  7. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    I saw the second version where it shows the woman getting the stake and her facial reaction on TCM. I don't know if that version is on the current available Blu ray on Amazon.

    But I'ld like to point out that Horror Of Dracula was first and last Technicolor masterpiece of the entire series and as you've indicated the rest of these shows how good Technicolor was compared to what happened to color by and large during the late '60's and into the '70's on what has become known or described as grind house color.

    Below are pictures I shot of my eyeball calibrated Samsung playing the Technicolor version of Horror Of Dracula I mentioned above on TCM compared to the color of one from the later series which was typical of a lot of movies I saw in the theater which had a kind of ruddy color appearance.

    [​IMG]

    Now it may be set design that's influencing the final color palette but the ruddy look is too consistent among the entire later series to be attributed to only that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
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  8. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    I don't think that's true. I agree that the Hammer films were cheap, but they weren't shooting Techniscope (2-perf) or Super-Techniscope. As far as I know, "Hammerscope" was just the normal 2X CinemaScope/Panavision anamorphic squeeze to 2.39:

    List of anamorphic format trade names - Wikipedia

    The Sergio Leone "Spaghetti Westerns" did popularize Techniscope, and that was where they were using a 2-perf 2.39 frame and spherical lenses to get 20 minutes out of a normal 10-minute camera load. They lost some of that cost savings when the finished 2-perf film had to be blown up to normal anamorphic 4-perf prints, and that's also where the quality suffered.

    I agree that Hammer had a specific look for their color, but I think this was just art department decisions more than anything else. Prior to about 2001, there wasn't that much that could be done to intensify or reduce color saturation beyond just exposure change in the lab (denser = more sat; lighter = less sat). Once it went digital, we could do anything. I don't know if they were using Eastman film or Ilford or Fuji or Agfa or what, but there were a lot of choices in those years.
     
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  9. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    There's the same kind of complaints about the overly bluish color and rosy pink skin tone hues on the Horror of Dracula Blu ray as there was over the 2011 Star Wars New Hope Blu ray discussed in that other long thread.

    Here's the comparison to the Japanese version A/B comparison to the restoration on blu ray...



    It looks like people are not viewing these blu rays on a neutral white balanced or calibrated display because I finally got my copy of the Star Wars New Hope Blu ray and the overly bluish and darker whites don't exist on my Samsung. The color looks fine which is what I thought was going to happen. I don't know where theses folks are getting their screengrabs from but they are not consistent so that points to another unsolvable problem.
     
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  10. wayneklein

    wayneklein Forum Fool Thread Starter

    Thanks for that one info. My info on the period might be out of date or wrong as I remember reading about it ages ago.
     
  11. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Hammer color films did sometimes have a pretty intense look, particularly the late-1960s/early-1970s Dracula films, and I remember they looked that way in the theater. I think the people who own the home video rights today tried to bring that back as best they could and honor the original intentions.
     
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  12. wayneklein

    wayneklein Forum Fool Thread Starter

    I will be curious about the intensity of the color choices from Warner Archive. Generally, I've found that they do excellent work when it comes to most of their restoration work and they tend to stay away from revisionist color choices. I love the work they did on "Night Moves" and "Performance" (RIP Nic Roeg) so am hopeful they do a great job here as well.
     
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  13. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    I can tell you for sure according to what I saw on both TCM's showing of my very first Christopher Lee Dracula movie, 1968's "Dracula Has Risen From The Grave" that they will NOT make the image look overly blue or ruddy looking. In fact going by these screenshots...

    Dracula Has Risen from the Grave Blu-ray

    They are exactly what I saw on TCM.

    Now compare that color rendering to the ruddy looking Dracula-Prince Of Darkness movie I posted above which now from looking it up on Blu-Ray.com is sourced from the original UK Pinewood studio negatives.

    Dracula: Prince of Darkness Blu-ray
     
  14. wayneklein

    wayneklein Forum Fool Thread Starter

    Yeah I watched "Dracula Has Risen From The Grave" on Blu-ray and, as far as that goes, they didn't go with a blue meanie bluish tinge or any changes that alarmed me. It reminded me of when I saw the film back in theaters in 1968 (actually it looked much, much better as it was dependent on the projectionist and the quality of the print in terms of presentation). "Taste" looks similarly good looking like typical Hammer fare of the 60's it does, however, suffer from more of functional, less imaginative cinematography than Jack Asher's work (Asher's style didn't go for natural definable light sources but a more surreal use of lighting, gels, etc.). Interestingly, I always found that the films directed by Freddie Francis for Hammer, Amicus, etc. had LESS imaginative lighting than his own work for others. Asher's visual style complimented Terence Fisher's staging and direction. The use of bold colors in Hammer's Gothic horror films reached it's peak by the early 60's settling for a less bold look that isn't quite as vibrant later.
     
  15. wayneklein

    wayneklein Forum Fool Thread Starter

    I had mixed up Hammerscope with another technique where Techniscope which I thought had always explained the high level of grain in some of their films (such as "Curse of Frankenstein" which the UK release looks awful so Warner Archive have their work cut out for them. It doesn't seem to get the love that "Horror" did) clearly though the original negative is in very very poor shape after looking at "Curse". Warner did a good job on "Curse" for DVD so here's hoping that they do the same here as well. I don't know what elements they are working with (original negative or a vintage interpositive) if the latter I wonder if it will impact the level of detail compared to the original negative (given how bad the shape the negative is at this time). I'm really surprised no one has taken the step at Lion's Gate (which is who owns the rights to the film in the UK as I recall) to do a restoration of some sort. The Blu-ray transfer for the UK release though is pretty bad looking.
     
  16. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    In a perfect world, what they generally do is run a vintage print (hopefully in good shape), make notes from that, and then use those to make color decisions for the new digital color. On the 1970s/1980s/1990s projects I work on these days, we try to get the most recent DVD release on the assumption that the director approved it, and then we use that for inspiration. It's helped me a few times when I realize they shot a scene day for night, and I was all set to make it look like it was 3PM in the afternoon. I had one recently where I had initially made all the titles white, but the DVD revealed all the titles needed to be yellow, so I made sure we made them perfect and consistently yellow.

    AMIA (the Association for Moving Image Archivists) adopted a philosophy similar to doctors: "First, do no harm." We try hard not to screw with the original film too much and deviate from what the filmmakers want. If you can see into the shadows a little more and maybe get more detail from the highlights, I think that's fine to make it look a little better than it originally did, but not to go too wild (like turning all the blues cyan) and stuff like that.
     
  17. wayneklein

    wayneklein Forum Fool Thread Starter

    I've watched The Warner and prefer the warmer colors. This is the BFI restoration and so doesn't feature the Japanese scenes. A pity that Warner didn't elect to do any special features for this but it's not a surprise as the Archive releases usually only port over what was used before.
     
  18. Partyslammer

    Partyslammer Lord Of The New Church

    (Horror of) Dracula is in my top 5 favorite movies along with Harryhausen’s Jason And The Argonauts, the original Gojira/Godzilla, 2001: A Space Odyssey and Close Encounters Of The Third Kind. I’ve seen it hundreds of times including several theatrical prints over the decades. I know it pretty much inside and out. I just got through watching the new WAC Blu-ray and I’ll throw my two cents about it here....

    First off, this is basically a hybrid UK/US cut of the film. It features the original UK “Dracula” title in the opening credits, not the US title Horror Of Dracula. But it is the slightly more complete US cut of the film that basiccally includes a few more frames and added screams during the Lucy Staking scene that were edited from the original UK release. The only extra is a theatrical trailer. There is no Japanese footage that included an alternate take of Mina’s seduction and the added bits of Dracula’s death at the film’s climax. If you want to see that, buy the UK Blu-ray that has both the raw, unmolested (and in poor condition) footage as well as most of that footage digitally cleaned up, reintegrated and re-color timed to match the BFI restoration.

    I hate to say it but I’m pretty disappointed with the picture quality on the Warner Archive release. The color timing is far superior to the revisionist “blue” 2013 UK Blu-ray release but the trade-off is there’s major contrast boosting and serious black crush.

    It’s almost rediculous to say this, but the overall best looking version of this movie is currently the HD broadcast on TCM that’s usually shown around Halloween every year which isn’t perfect itself. I don’t understand how that can happen unless WAC was under some obligation to use the BFI source but the TCM version has significantly more visible detail in near-dark shadows although admittedly, it’s a bit soft and a tad too light.

    Honestly, if WAC had put the TCM version out with a decent encode, I would have been happy knowing this movie is over 60 years old and the window is probably closed due to deterioration of any remaining archival film source for another attempt to restore the film.
     
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  19. Jimi Bat

    Jimi Bat Forum Resident

    Location:
    tx usa
    I agree completely. After Hammer fired Jack Asher the look of their films went down a notch.

    What I've been reading on CHFB about the new HOD has been pretty negative. Having heard of the Japanese footage and waiting so long to see it its disappointing that Warners decided not to include it on the new Blu. Also hearing things about crushed blacks and a dark picture. I wont be getting this and I'm a huge Hammer fan. My next Blu-ray player will be multi region and then I'll get the Lions Gate and or the German version.
     
  20. wayneklein

    wayneklein Forum Fool Thread Starter

    Having seen both I prefer the HOD simply because the IP Technicolor and colortiming are correct. While theJapanese footage is cool my guess is that it was too much money to license both and hit their sales price/goal. Each version has its drawbacks—detail and image color are slightly better particularly in the middle to far distance. This version is based on
    The2007BFI restoration for the film. The color is subdued with a predominant greenish and bluish tome that doesn’t represent the way the film has always looked. Asher’s cinematography looks better rendered on the U.S and is truer to the original look. My advice would’ve to give the Warner a chance
    And buy it fromAmazon. If you don’t like it return it as defective. Warner chose to remain true to the original version and while I wish they had licensed the Lion’s Gate (if possible) for The US release. It’s a slippery slope because if they had released it only that way it would have been in appropriate based on how it used to look in the US. It’s a difficult decision I know that Warner archive tries to keep the prices low for their releases which is why they don’t have a lot of special features in most of the money for the project to spend on trying to ensure a good transfer. I will note though that on the Blu-ray at the Warner version of Dracula the blacks tend to be a little crushed but the colors are vivid in accurate compared to the version that was released in the US and true to Jack Ashers cinematography
     
  21. wayneklein

    wayneklein Forum Fool Thread Starter

    It will be interesting to compare shout factory‘s Dracula prince of darkness because they include both the US version and the UK version that was released on millennium last year or the year before that. They had some differences in terms of the look but also some slight differences in terms of content that I recall. The shout factory Dracula prince of darkness is drawn from the 20th century fox intro positive not the original Camera negative so I would imagine a detailed is slightly Yes less pronounced and APT probably other minor differences in terms of color spoiled since fox probably took her own at the time. My understanding is that the fox into positive version of the film is unique.
     
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  22. Jimi Bat

    Jimi Bat Forum Resident

    Location:
    tx usa
    So, does the HOD Blu-ray chop off the top of Chris Lee's head like the old dvd?
     
  23. Partyslammer

    Partyslammer Lord Of The New Church

    I also received and watched SF's Dracula Prince Of Darkness Blu-ray this week and it too is a mixed bag.

    There's two very slightly different versions of the film on the Shout Blu-ray - the UK version and the US (Fox) version. The only differences between the two versions content-wise is the opening titles and closing credits. Otherwise the film is identical for both countries. That said, SF indeed included two different sources, the UK version looks to be the same source that's been used for the older UK Studio Canal Blu-ray/DVD and the US Millennium Blu-ray. The first release of the UK BD featuring the UK version of the film had severe noise reduction applied to the picture wiping out fine detail as well as an audio sync issue. The disc was recalled and reissued fixing the audio sync problem and reducing (but not totally eliminating) the noise reduction. The Millennium US BD used the flawed first transfer from Studio Canal and featured a lossy audio track. Despite these flaws, the source and transfer for these previous releases featured (almost too) vivid but fairly accurate colors.

    The new SF release uses the Studio Canal transfer for the UK version but the color has been dialed back a bit too much making it less vivid and even a bit muted. The US version is from a different print that appears to be from a lesser quality source and is more contrasty and dark with some black crush. It also appears to have been digitally color re-timed to give many day-for-night scenes a far more blueish tint. Both versions feature lossless audio. The UK version on this release is by far the preferred viewing experience.

    Some of the extras have been ported over from the UK Studio Canal release. There's a new and fairly comprehensive stills and poster gallery that's a very worthy addition.

    IMO, the UK Studio Canal Blu-ray/DVD combo remains the best home video release as far as the movie as long as you get the corrected disc. The Shout release is the best regarding the extras.
     
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  24. Partyslammer

    Partyslammer Lord Of The New Church

    No. The framing is perfect.
     
  25. wayneklein

    wayneklein Forum Fool Thread Starter

    The difference you mentioned (I haven't seen it yet because Shout forgot to ship mine until today) is probably attributable to Shout using an interpositive which is one step away from the OCN (which would provide a better source for fine detail, etc.). The Shout would be from an interpositive that is decades old and, using current approaches, there would be a better result even from a newer interpositive.

    That's too bad it is a mixed bag. I was really hoping for the ultimate versions of "Horror of Dracula" and "Dracula Prince of Darkness" but, as a long time Hammer fan, I'm used to being disappointed.
     
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