Hana ML + JC3 jr.: Loading Question

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Reever, Oct 25, 2020.

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  1. Reever

    Reever Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Order of Battle:
    Hana ML (Impedance=8 ohms, Suggested load >100 ohms)
    Clearaudio Concept, Satisfy Kardan Tonearm
    Parasound JC3 jr. Phono Stage
    Yamaha A-S801
    KEF R300

    Currently running my first-ever MC cartridge, the Hana ML (Just over 11-hours), and I'm looking for some advice as to how to approach loading. Currently, I have the JC3 jr. set at 120 ohms +/-, but that is wholly arbitrary in that the only thing that recommends it is simply being >100. I'm thinking there must be a better way of determining these things? (I've tried "listening," but given my ignorance I'm not certain I am listening with right kind of ears. What am I listening for?)

    So, what I'm looking for is the following:

    1: Is there a recommended value for loading the cartridge that has proven effective?
    2: Barring that, is there a way to determine that value is given the equipment in the chain? An equation or calculation of some kind?
    3: Or, is there a procedure or method one can follow to set the load? Step 1....Step 2....etc.
    4: A more basic question--as the load changes, are there rules of thumb that govern what changes with the sound? By way of example, if I increase the load from 120 to 220, how will that impact the sound? Is loading somehow akin to tone controls, I suppose, is what I am asking....I guess.

    Thanks for reading and and any advice you might have to offer.

    PS: I'm not sure if complicates matters further, but the JC3 jr. has low hours on it as well (only 40-hours +/-), so both the Hana and the Pre are still breaking in. Pertinent?
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
  2. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Loading is typically somewhere between 5 to 10 times the cartridge’s internal impedance. For someone using a step-up transformer, loading is typically somewhere between 1 to 5 times the cartridge’s internal impedance. In general, the higher the loading, the higher the treble frequency output (or the lower the low frequency output in you prefer to look at it that way).

    For friends and and others, I generally begin with one of two settings: the manufacturer’s recommended loading, or 47K. No doubt that 47K sounds tipped up and strident, but the reaction of a someone for whom I’m doing a setup also tells me something about their hearing. Most often, the manufacturer’s recommended setting is the best place to start because - in a generally well-balanced system that plays music that is at least close to be transparent to the source - it provides the most balanced frequency response.

    So begin with the manufacturer’s recommended loading and listen to music for at least a couple of days. After that, if you’re feeling that there’s not quite enough treble and air (or recordings that actually have it for your system to reproduce) adjust loading up to 400 ohms or 1K and live with that for a couple of days (or at least long enough to decide if you prefer the change). If you feel that the factory recommended loading is not providing enough low end, drop the loading to 50 ohms (i.e., half the recommended factory loading of 100 ohms) and live with that for a couple of days.

    The only exception to starting off with the factory recommended loading is in situations in which a step-up transformer is being used. But you’re not using one, so that’s for a different thread.

    Consider being patient with loading changes - don’t rush to judgement after only an hour or two of listening. It takes our brains a lot longer that we realize to shed what they get used to and adjust to the changed loading setting. I don’t want to talk about the excessive number of times that I made too many loading changes too quickly in succession and ended up not knowing which setting was best, thereafter having to walk away for a day or two and start with the factory recommended setting again and take it slower. Patience and (relaxed) listening sessions during which music is enjoyed (and assessed) works best I think.

    [ADDED] If your JC3 Junior has been running continuously for a few days at least, your final loading setting should be reliable. As well, the tiny suspension in a cartridge really doesn’t need as much break-in as you might think. Play a few LPs that have loud, deep extended bass and percussion passages. Play a few LPs that have extended high treble sections (e.g., massed orchestral violins play loudly in the upper registers) and your cartridge will be perfectly well broken in. Playing such passages will also help you determine if your alignment, azimuth and vertical tracking angle are correct (at the cartridge maker’s default loading recommendation).
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  3. Reever

    Reever Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Much appreciated. It's the beginnings of a plan and some good advice. My one point of confusion here is that, near as I can tell, the manufacturer doesn't make a specific recommendation for loading beyond the rather vague "greater than 100 ohms." Or am I incorrect in that? Over thinking it?

    And thank you again for taking the time to reply. You inspire confidence where there was none.
     
  4. Don't overthink it.
    Many LOMCs are happy with 100 ohm loading, and that's where you should start.
    If you like it with 100 ohm loading it's job done.
     
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  5. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    There must always be a starting point! The cartridge maker states "greater than 100 ohms?" No worries. Begin the process with either 100 ohms or 200 ohms. Flip a coin to choose. There's no bad choice, and don't be surprised if the Hana ML sounds great and almost identical to you at either loading.

    Be careful of gain too. I've found over the years that a lot of guys use phono stage gain settings that are too high. Phono stages are inherently noisier than line stages, in general. That means a lower gain setting that then requires a somewhat higher than normal volume control setting on your very good A-S801 will almost always result in comparatively lower background noise. Better sound.

    Note that when I'm helping someone sort out what they feel might be perceptible inner groove distortion, almost half the time it's not that but rather excessive phono stage gain. Seriously - almost half of the so-called problem setups I come across are suffering from absurdly high gain. Some of those guys have done the perfectly valid gain setting calculation based mainly on the cartridge's specified output voltage. The problem is that a lot of different phono stage makers rate their particular gain settings differently from each other, so a (for example) 58dB gain setting from one phono stage maker will sound notably louder than 58dB from another maker. Start low and find the balance between low background noise and good amplifier response. Sort out loading after that.
     
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  6. Reever

    Reever Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Right. My inexperience and ignorance is showing...and my greed. The addition of the JC3 jr. and the Hana marks the most dramatic steps forward in SQ I've ever experienced. And now I want more of it. I want to make sure that through my ignorance I'm not hindering what it can do. So yeah, at 120 ohms it sounds amazing...but what if?

    Thank you!
     
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  7. Reever

    Reever Forum Resident Thread Starter

    It's set at 60db right now, and I have to say, it seems almost absurdly quiet, but I'm going to try your suggestion, lower it to 50db and see what happens. This move to a higher end-ish phono stage and MC cart has been revelatory. More awaits, perhaps. Thanks.
     
  8. You'll drive yourself mad chasing what ifs.
    As @Agitater has said, if you double it you might not notice a difference.

    I have a Hana SH, and a big part of going HOMC for me was the lack of paranoia about cartridge loading.
    With HOMC it's 47kohm loading, which is standard phono loading for MM, and no additional gain considerations because of a stronger signal to begin with.
     
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  9. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Nah . . . be patient and live with it for a few LPs at least. Listen through at least a few LPs for signs of slight clipping/peaking/high frequency distortion hints, and that sort of thing.

    Then again, in my experience, the JC3 Jr measures higher at 50dB than many other phono stages. Plus, the Hana ML (is it 0.5mV?) measures slightly higher IIRC, so 50dB combined with a slightly higher volume setting on the Yamaha might be perfect. Still though, live with the current setting.

    Then again (again), I’ve never heard the JC3 Jr. with any ultra-low (e.g., 0.2mV output) carts so I’ve also never had an opportunity to check’s its 60dB gain setting.
     
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  10. Reever

    Reever Forum Resident Thread Starter

    @Agitater

    Too late. Not much difference between the 60db and 50db setting. The 50db setting puts the volume knob just a tick or two past 0900 for 60dbs in my listening chair. The 60db setting is just a tick below 0900 for the same. I suspect differences would be in sharper relief at higher SPLs, but that isn't going to happen, so I'm happy with either at this point.

    The ML specs put it at .4mV.

    Such a pleasure to listen too, regardless.
     
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  11. draden1

    draden1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Des Moines, IA
    Glad you’re enjoying the Hana ML and Parasound combo! I too use a Hana ML and to further your enjoyment (or frustration, lol) with this cartridge after you feel good about your loading, be sure you have the ability to adjust VTA. Depending on how resolving the rest of your system is and how attentive you like to listen, I’ve found that the ML sounds better being adjusted up or down based on the particular record. The tonearm movement can be subtle but your patience will be rewarded when you get it right as vocals are more intelligible, the soundstage is bigger/better defined, and instruments have more bite.

    Food for thought.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  12. Reever

    Reever Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I'm already there with the VTA. I had it about a millimeter to high on the nose and it was a touch fatiguing. Lowered it that millimeter and viola! Perfect. Balanced. No fatigue. Getting this thing setup is critical, but once it is....incredible. Tracks like a monster. Sibilance is a distant memory (recording dependent, of course. I've yet to give it the Bono test.). Soundstage. Imaging. Dimensionality. It was a bit disconcerting at first. It felt like I could get up out of my chair and walk around in it. Yes, enjoying it, to be sure.
     
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  13. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    I have the Hana SL with a JC3 Jr.

    120 ohms is much too low IME. It seems to sound best between 450 and 500 ohms.

    Either the 50 or 60db gain setting should be enough for most systems. The Yamaha is probably the quieter circuit, so try the 50db setting to see if that lowers the noise floor.
     
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  14. Reever

    Reever Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Already switched to the 50db setting, and it sounds great. As noted above, I haven't noted any meaningful differences between the two settings, but I haven't turned it up appreciably, either.

    And thanks for the tip about loading. Hadn't even considered going that high with it. The outputs are similar between the SL and the ML but the impedance and and recommended loads are seemingly much different, though <400 vs >100 certainly puts you in the same range. Thanks for the help.

    ETA: What do you see as the break in times on the JC3 jr and the Low output Hanas?
     
  15. Davey

    Davey NP: CLARAGUILAR ~ Figura (2024)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    There was a really good discussion last year at Cartridge loading | Audiogon Discussion Forum , and some of the participants have posted here occasionally with their own take on the subject, but it remains an open issue. As you've seen, most cartridge manufacturers these days leave it completely up to the consumer as to what loading to use, not even providing a range of values, and one reason for that is because the effects of loading are still not fully understood.

    So in the end, best you can do is to experiment, as others have suggested. The JC3 Jr allows you to switch between a fixed 47K ohm input load and the 50-550 variable control, so see what you like best, your results are likely affected by the preamp design and the cartridge design, along with possibly your own preferences. Listen especially for how well ticks are rendered, that can give you an indication of how well the preamp handles impulses, they shouldn't sound exagerrated, and should be in a separate sound space making them easier to ignore. The loading will change the compliance the cantilever sees to a small degree, and so will change the tracking ability, that is another gauge that can be used.

    In the end, I generally wind up around 500 ohms with my cartridge assortment and don't fret much about it these days, but I also use transformers.
     
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  16. Reever

    Reever Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Thank you, everyone, for the information and insight, and for taking the time to respond. Many gracious and generous folk in these parts. Selah.
     
  17. Mr.Sign

    Mr.Sign Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    The SL demands around 400 Ohm , the ML is different it demands around 100 Ohm.
     
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  18. Reever

    Reever Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I was thinking along similar lines. The ML only has 8 ohm impedance vs. the SL's 30 ohms. Accounts for the variance in loading recommendations, I should think.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  19. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    I’m not sure why the idea exists that the effects of loading are not fully understood. Most cartridge manufacturers and most phono stage manufacturers, through testing, develop graphs that show precisely how frequency response (post-preamp) is affected by various loadings and how internal impedance (of a cartridge) affect output of various frequencies. They’re straightforward measurements for anyone with even an only moderately well-equipped electronics workbench and certainly well within the capabilities of all major cartridge makers and all major phono stage makers who cares to do such measurements.

    There are also some audiophiles and plenty of others who haven’t taken the time to delve into such basic electronics and electrical theory to understand the effects of steady-steady voltage and loading or variable voltage and loading. So, they think it’s an unknown of some sort. On the contrary, it’s only unknown to them.

    At a given frequency or at a given moment when a range of frequencies are being reproduced it is easily possible to get a clear picture (e.g., a response graph) of how the loading is affecting the (phono stage) output signal or how a given internal impedance is affecting its output compared to a previously measured loading or a previous internal impedance design. Many phono stage designers do exactly such tests, because if they don’t how on earth can they know which loading settings to build into their designs? Guess at them? They build in the loading settings that sound good to them and that also sound good to their in-house (and beta testing) listening groups with a wide variety of cartridges. That’s how the products are developed. Many phono stage designers are also either in regular contact with or keeping track of a variety of cartridge designers/developers to best understand why and how they’re coming up with various internal impedances in cartridge designs.

    What phono stage and cartridge manufacturers cannot determine (and therefore cannot state with any certainty) is how a given loading will sound to a particular person listening at home. The reason is that while we all generally hear in generally similar ways, there are more than enough variations in frequency response in people’s hearing that one person will think a Hana ML cartridge sounds terrible while another might think is sounds merely average, while another person thinks it sounds superb. Same goes for amplifiers, the analogue output of DACs, phono stages, etc., etc. That’s the so-called “open issue”, not loading effects. Whether or not a particular phono stage designer’s loading choices suit a particular person’s hearing in a particular home audio system is a whole other matter, and if the choices don’t work for that particular person then he/she doesn’t have a hearing response that overlaps the original test group’s hearing response (or their room has issues) and back the phono stage or cartridge goes to the dealer, SHF buy & sell, eBay, or wherever.

    All of that is also why cartridge makers have no choice but to suggest a starting point or a minimum or a maximum - whatever suits a company’s documentation writer and marketing manager. I don’t think it has anything to do with an “open issue” or any other sort of (non-existant) technical or psychological mystery.
     
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  20. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Didn't realize they have different motors
     
  21. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    There's no recommendation other than more than 100 ohms because it's not a critical value with a MC cart.

    MCs have very low impedance and very low inductance. That means the capacitance and resistance loading of those cart is not going to impact the frequency response in the audible range the way the loading does with a MM cart which has a higher internal impedance and much higher inductance.

    (The resonant frequency of the harmonic oscillating circuit formed by the cart's inductance and the capacitance of the cable and the resistance of the phono stage, is way up in radio frequency range with a MC cart, because of the cart's very low inductance, vs. down in the audible range with higher inductance MMs, that's why C and R value are more critical with MMs.)

    The recommendation for a MC is usually basically 10X the internal impedance, to minimize voltage loss at the phono stage input, or, given the commonly encountered input resistances on phono stages and the common internal impedances of MC carts, greater than 100 ohms.

    If you use a lighter and lighter load, there will be more radio frequency ringing, How that will impact the sound will probably depend on other things in your system but at 100, 200, 400 ohms, I don't generally hear much difference with, say a 10 ohm cart. As the load gets closer to the internal impedance, -- like a 50 ohm load or a 20 ohm load on a 10 ohm cart -- the sound will get darker and softer with more voltage loss, which, considering the low voltage of a MC, is not necessarily ideal. As a very general rule of them you might think, the lighter the load the brighter the sound. If you have adjustable loading with different options between 100 and 1K or even up to 47k ohms, you can play around with them and hear if there's any difference. My guess is that if you keep the load around 100-200 ohms you'll have just the right balance of low loss and good damping of ultrasonic ringing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  22. Reever

    Reever Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Where there is choice, there is misery, like the fella says.

    Thank you, @chervokas, between your comments and @Agitater and many others here, I've been put out of my misery. I'm leaving things well enough alone at the current setting of 120 ohms. It sounds wonderful where things are, after all.
     
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  23. Davey

    Davey NP: CLARAGUILAR ~ Figura (2024)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    It could be that some manufacturers have this information and choose not to distribute it, I've certainly never seen and frequency response versus load resistance plots for the OP's Hana cartridge or the Parasound preamp we are discussing in this thread.

    But the point I was making, and it becomes more obvious when reading some of the threads like the one I linked, is that (at least for the manufacturers that are willing to participate) there is still some disagreement as to which of the electro-mechanical mechanisms at play are most responsible for the changes in sound that we hear with changes in LOMC cartridge loading. Changing the cartridge load (damping) resistance leads to compliance changes that potentially affect the cartridge tracking, and also affects the RF oscillation that Chervokas mentions, which can have an impact on the preamp performance. There are also some studies showing an increase in IM distortion when the load value is increased.

    In any case, it was just my observation as a consumer of cartridges and preamps that not much information concerning cartridge loading is readily available from the manufacturers, and that is why there are so many threads like this, and so many technical discussions concerning load effects. It could be that most of the manufacturers do fully understand the interactions and choose to not disclose the findings of their testing, but I still suspect that is not the case for many of them.
     
  24. AvFan

    AvFan Forum Resident

    From my experience increasing the load resistance a certain amount above the sweet spot has far less impact on the sound quality than decreasing it an equal amount. Therefore, I suspect manufactures often use the "loading greater than" approach if they spec loading at all. I like to start at 10x the cart's internal impedance and work down incrementally until the sound is obviously adversely impacted (dull, poor soundstage, just kind of blah). Then I work my way back up to what sounds best and if I overshoot the spec'd loading a bit it isn't that big of a deal. At this stage I also follow the manufacturers recommendation regarding SRA/VTA. Then I make minor adjustments to SRA/VTA and loading to see if the sound, paying particular attention to sibilance, can be refined any further.
     
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  25. Lowgroove

    Lowgroove Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Sorry to bump an old thread but I have had my Hana ML for about 100 hours and have used it with a Luxman 590AXII integrated which does not have variable loading - only 100 Ohm. I thought it sounded great with that loading.

    I have now upgraded my phono stage and have variable loading from 60 Ohm to 1000 Ohm. I have been listening at 100 Ohm but have now started experimenting with other values.

    I must agree. When I make quick changes (I can change "on the fly") the changes are very subtle.

    This seems like wise advice. I will try it at other loadings for a week or so each.
     
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