My dad's friend used to talk about Snell's all the time...he loved them...of course AN has taken the design many levels higher it, certainly would have been interesting to see Peter Snell grow his designs had he lived long enough....
I’m not sure how extensive your direct listening experience is with British speakers, but your impressions seem somewhat off the mark. Home audio loudspeakers designed and built in England, just like those designed and built in the U.S. or Canada, France, Germany, Denmark, Italy, Sweden, etc., etc., etc., run the entire gamut from marginally listenable to absolutely superb, from intimate to expansive, intimately warm to coldly clinical (and every permutation and combination of all those things). Wilson-Benesch, Wilson Audio, Zu Audio, Dali, Audio Vector, Harbeth, Gershman, Ohm, Spendor, Totem, Focal, B&W, Tannoy, Klipsch, Amphion, Martin Logan, Canton, Proac, Wharfedale, Monitor Audio, Magnepan, PMC, Polk, Quad, JBL, Rega, Sonus Faber, Diapason, and on and on and on and on, all make speaker models that work better in smaller rooms, models that work better in mid-size rooms, and models that work best in large rooms. Suggesting that smaller listening rooms are typical in “most of British and European homes” is actually flat-out wrong. I’m not sure where people get the idea that everyone in Europe and the UK lives in tiny places, but it’s simply not true. The place in which I often stay in London is a 1,200 square foot flat in South Kensington that has a main listening room larger than the one in my Toronto condo where I live for most of any given year. I think that if you spend some time auditioning a variety other British brands that offer speakers from LS3/5A size up to concert hall-filling monsters, you will find everything from warmth to clinically etched detail, along with startling realism and (from some models) mansion-filling SPLs capable of blowing the back wall out of a typical American suburban split-level. Same goes for U.S. speakers, Canadian speakers, French speakers, Finnish speakers, Danish speakers, German speakers, Italian speakers, etc., etc., etc. The idea that there is a general British sound is an ancient trope from the ‘60s that was only barely true back then, and a simple myth perpetuated over the intervening decades ever since. I’m not directing or suggesting that anyone should automatically like British speakers better than American or Canadian or whatever other speakers happen to be available for audition. I’m only saying that avoiding auditions of any speaker because of Web discussion forum mythology is a serious mistake. I think that doing so will will deprive you of much of the depth and breadth of variety and quality that’s available to hear today. A pair of Harbeth SHL5+ speakers will easily load up a big listening room with glorious sound. The Harbeth Monitor 40.1 speakers owned by a friend of mine with a massive home in Chelsea that features (among other remarkable things) has a custom-designed 24’ x 36’ home theatre and entertainment room that the speakers load to astonishing volume levels. He prefers his KEF Blades for certain recordings, his Harbeth 40.1s for others, and his Tannoy Canterbury for his favorite jazz. Another friend over there lives in north London - the Edmonton area - in a 1200 square foot pre-war, two-storey row house. It’s a delightful place in a crazy, mixed up neighbourhood. He’d got a small, all purpose living room with a good-sized TV, a small stereo rack and a rather common suburban setup. It’s great - home away from home when I’m there. The point is that homes in Europe and the UK run the entire gamut from the tiniest to the most astonishingly massive.
Very extensive. I owned Quad, Spendor, Harbeth, Acoustic Energy, Stirling (still own), and ATC. Yes, that is why I said, "traditionally" and "generally speaking". The idea comes from my own experience as I am European myself, born and raised.
What is it with people on this forum telling people their opinion is wrong? your opinion is your own it's not designed for everyone else, and know one said British "and no other" the only speaker that came up in this thread was AN and it wasn't even about "Mid-range" dude just wrote a whole paperback book full of self righteous nonsense...
I've only heard Harbeth speakers maybe three times in my entire life, but my demo last week, and the feedback provided by people in this thread, makes me cautious of running Harbeth speakers with tubes, or any amp that is lacking in power (perhaps not power, but damping factor, as it seems that the key with Harbeth speakers is controlling the woofer). So yes, the Pass Labs amp mentioned a few posts back might work; it's only 30 watts but the DF is 150. The Unison hybrid I initially thought might work well is 95 watts but has a DF of something like 27, and at the moment I'm less inclined to think it would be an ideal match. Powered by tubes (Primaluna) the P3ESR sounded glorious with sparse music. But with rock it was like a totally different speaker; the sweet midrange was still present, but the sound wasn't open and clear anymore. Whether a high power + high DF SS amp would fix that, I'm not sure - based on the feedback in this thread, it should, but I guess that's in the mind of each listener. So I'm kind of on the fence. I may stick with PMC and just run them with a tube amp. I have equal success running these speakers with a Sugden A21 and a Cayin CS-55A. The Cayin gives me a little more body, tone, and inner detail, with a more halographic sound. Both amps can drive the speakers to very high volume without strain. So I think I want to run tubes for what tubes can give, and I'd upgrade the Cayin to something a little nicer (Primaluna or AN Cobra most likely). If I go Harbeth that is likely out the window...I'd probably just get the Belles Aria and be comfortable in the knowledge that I have ideal amplification and all the amazing sound quality that Harbeth provides. Don't think I can go wrong either way - I love how my system sounds, it's very well balanced and is engaging, but Harbeth definitely provides a different presentation that can be intoxicating. I'd just hate to find, that after living with the P3's during their break in period, they can't handle rock as well as I'd like them to, as I still listen to a lot of rock music. I actually think I'm talking myself out of this move. Tomorrow that might be different, lol.
Upgrade to Primaluna from Cayin? That might actually be a downgrade depending on the specific amps. Consider that most Cayins are fixed-bias vs Prima luna's auto bias. The comparable Cayins often weigh more for a reason. I've used my A88T with various lossy-Brit-boxes with excellent results. The only real path to greater bass control is through a high-power tube amp, something like a Rogue Stereo 100.
Some of the Cayins are manual biased....I had a friend of mines in my system for about 3 months...it was a 30 watt pure class A push pull Pentode Amp..it wasn't a U.S. model I don't know how he got a hold of it...
CS-55A to Evo 100. Surprised to hear PL might be a downgrade. They have a great reputation for quality and reliability overall. I don't mind setting the bias on an amp if it has meters for me to do so, and all I need to do is turn a screw. I've always been attracted to tube amps but I kind of think of them as a headache as well, and auto bias helps address that a bit. So it's attractive to me. Is there something inherently bad about it? If it was bad for sound quality then I"m not sure companies like AN and Raven would use auto bias, but they do so on their amps. I also like the ability to run lots of different tubes, something PL provides. But the main reason that I would change tube amps is that the Cayin has a DAC and phono stage - I don't require either. Also, I will need another input to run all the sources that I want to run. I'm certainly open to other brands besides AN and PL, as long as they don't have unnecessary features and have the inputs that I want...Audio Space, Line Magnetic, etc. will also be considered. Opera Consonance has some really nice looking models as well.
Many seem to believe fixed-bias results in better sound. I'm not sure, but it may be something worth investigating. I haven't owned any auto-bias tube amps. Not considering the auto-bias, Cayin should be just as reliable as they're made by the same hands and incorporate parts of similar quality. From what I've seen, the Cayin point-to-point wiring seems about the neatest of the big 3 Chinese makes. I just think you'll likely find a PL to be a lateral move, but maybe not if the Evo amps are really special. I'd wager your Cayin is as dead quiet as a good SS amp at idle. Correct?
I would avoid looking at one spec geberally. Take the AN Kit One...it's an 8 watt 300B and I auditiones it directly against a Cary 300B. The AN Kit just sounded way WAY more ballsy in the bass. High Damping factors equal high negative feedback equals worse sound. I have a Rotel power amp with over 500df and it's pretty dreadful compare to a SET and no offense so is Pass Labs/Threshold. I am not surprised Nelson focused on First Watt. But as you know I prefer a speaker with more anplifier options. You can still go with tubes and Single Ended. The picture with the SORO SE is not a SET. An 18 watt per channel Single Ended Pentode. I am not surprised by the choice because it implements some feedback for control and the amplifier has a lot of drive. It is still the best combination that I have heard with Magnepan. I have heard Magnepan with Bryston separates...powrr and DF galore and then with the SORO and boom no contest. I've tried more powerful push pull tubes that can work...but still you have to try them. How is the bass handled like you say? I would just counter that SS often sounds one note and lacks body and tone. So they have the crushing gush gush gush but do they have any nuance? When I have seen Harbeths at my dealer Soundhounds in Canada or the dealer here they have a tube amp on them. Generally I find the higher watt tubes sound worse to me. KT88, kT90, KT 120 they sound SS enough (reedy) to me that I would probably not want the hassle of tube amps, which are a hassle, and just go SS. Or you could even try going with a tube preamp and solid state power amp. Sometimes it's best not to try amd force the square peg into the round hole. Some speakers are designed with lower power tube amps in mind and some ain't. If you want to go with SET you need a speaker designed for it. There are a lot of great speakers vit it still comes down to now and future planning. As much as I like AN or someone likes Harbeth if both companies disappeared off the face of the earth we could all find another speaker to buy and rave about.
Yes, no discernible noise from the Cayin and it sounds excellent. When I bought it, it had an issue in one channel (static and sound cutting in and out). That was repaired and it's been flawless ever since. Still, I need an extra input or two, and less features. So it's going for sure. There are a lot of good options when it comes to tube integrateds nowadays. I'd love to hear how that sounds with rock. The PL amp sounded glorious, so yes, I'm sure Harbeth and tubes can work just fine. But, like I said, that was with very simple acoustic music. When some Dire Straits was played it was a different story. And that's just Dire Straits. Not Zeppelin, or GN'R, or God forbid anything harder than that. Understood about DF not being all that relevant most of the time, and what it takes to achieve a high DF spec. But if the driver on Harbeth speakers needs control for certain kinds of music, then I think the spec becomes a bit more relevant. Actually, after typing that I just pulled up a Stereophile review on the Prologue Premium Integrated amp and the output impedance of this amp is 2 ohms, making the DF an incredibly low value of 4! Not sure I've ever seen a figure that low before. The power amp is even lower, with a DF under 1! Maybe the new range of amps has a higher DF than this, but if not then that could certainly account for the sound I heard. I find the Sugden and Cayin to sound very similar. The Sugden provides a bit more detail and slam; the Cayin a more holographic sound, with a bit more tone and body to each note. Not a night and day difference, but definitely noticeable. But, I'm guessing that you can get body and tone a number of ways - you don't necessarily need tubes. Yes, one way is through the amp, but another is through the speaker. I hear added body and tone when I run tubes through my PMC's. So they are revealing and capable enough of producing this. But this is kind of what the Harbeth's major in, so even if you run a SS amp that may not have the body and tone of a low powered tube amp, because you have Harbeth's, it's from the speaker that you're getting those qualities. If you want loads of body and tone, you either run Harbeth's via an amp that can power them adequately (tube or SS), or you run a SET amp into sensitive speakers that let you hear the amp. The best I can probably do with the PMC's is run a 30 watt or more tube amp that will give me a taste of that sound but won't get me all the way there - of course, the PMC's will do other things that those other speakers don't do quite as well and it's up to each listener to determine what is most important.
That's an example of an amp running out of gas. I like tubes as much as the next guy, but I have P3's and have always used SS with at least 100 wpc. IME when driven correctly, these speakers handle any style of music...
That’s not my experience. I have listened to Harbeth speakers in numerous set ups powered by solid state gear and when I owned the SuperHL5plus there was nothing lacking in punch, dynamics or bass control for any music genre, when driven by my Conrad Johnson Premier 12 rube amps. I never heard Harbeths sound better. (And I played a lot of Rush, Van Halen etc and would be the first to complain if the combo robbed energy and drama from those bands). You can find tube amps that will be lacklustre with Harbeths, but you can also find some that pair great!
Well yes - the Harbeths will struggle with harder rock at higher volumes with a lower powered amp regardless of whether it is SS or tubes - they sit in the area of 85dB sensitivity. But SET amps themselves are not the problem - the lack of power into a Low sensitive and or low efficiency speaker is the problem. At the California Audio Show the new Meishu 300B Tonmeister at a whopping 9 watts was producing bass crushing levels playing back a variety of noise metal and thrashing kind of music. The AN E is an easy to drive speaker but in fact it isn't the easiest thing in the world. As someone who owns albums from: Aerosmith, Motley Crue, Dire Straits, AC/DC, Nightwish, Noisia, Delerium, Green Day, etc the system has to play this and it has to play it loud. To get the same level of impact with a 10dB difference in speaker sensitivity will require more than ten times the power. So to be safe if you get crushing levels with 8 watts on 97dB speaker then you will need 80-90 watts to get the same from a SS amp or other push pull tube amp. 87db 1 w 90dB 2w 93dB 4 w 96dB 8 w 99dB 16 w 102dB 32 w 105dbB 64 w 108dB 128w 97dB 1w 100dB 2w 103dB 4w 106dB 8w 109dB 16W On most music it is probably fine as you know - Diana Krall - girl at a piano at moderate volume - hell a 3 watt amp could drive an 87dB speaker probably just fine if it was pretty good. Indeed, the 3 watt amp from Line Magnetic was fine with ATC SCM 100s a notoriously hard to drive speaker. But no one is playing AC/DC on them. This is not problem - there are plenty of amps out there - it's just a matter of what you like - if you LOVE the Harbeths then you make some compromises to your amp choices. But there are tons of SS and tube amps that are good - for me personally I prefer easier to drive higher sensitive speakers which gives me more options with amps. So I probably lean for to a list of speakers that are both High Sentive and highly efficient. I would want to listen to as many of those as I could and then if none of them are satisfactory I would then start looking at sub 89dB speakers. It's why the KEF LS-50 eventually went out the door. The speakers are a good price - the problem isn't the speaker - it's trying to get a satisfactory match at an affordable price. I got good sound with my $7,500 LM 219IA but that is a lot to pay to get good sound of them! My 12 watt KingKo amp just could not drive them well at all. But the Kingko is more appropriately priced to a "typical" system build around a $1500 speaker like the KEF. SS was hopeless - the metal tweeter was too pronounced with SS. The KingKo with AX Two was vastly better than even the LM 219 and KEF the latter costs $9,000US combined the Former costs $1,700 combined. The best experience I have had with Harbeth has been with MSB (A $50,000+ front end) and the SORO but I didn't play crushing music with the latter. I played Jackson Browne and Lady Gaga kind of stuff - the latter was the poppy hit Bad Romance - but it's still not hard rock - it was a compressed recording and while it sounded tight and fast - I can't make the leap that an 18 watt amp no matter how good could rally blow you away - and IMO when spending all this money - it really oughta shake you all night long when playing AC/DC. Cayin is pretty good gear - Line Magnetic hired their engineers away from Cayin several years ago. Current Cayin (I am told) is just older Cayin re-badged. So why not look at LM - their prices are not too bad. Check out the LM 805IA and the LM 150IA The LM 150IA is 100 watts per channel - that SHOULD breeze through any Harbeth. And it can be used as a power amp in the future.
@Agitater Average home size is smaller over this size of the pond, increasingly so. Certainly, your pals digs would be exceptional in London, though perhaps not so much around South Kensington.
I agree - it often comes down to the tube type and indeed the quality of the SS amp. As everyone knows - you can't just go by how many watts it has. There are just some amplifiers that seem to have an extra gear. I remember auditioning the Sugden A48B a 65-70 watt amplifier versus a Musical Fidelity A300 at 150 watts per channel. The latter was new and raved about. I auditioned BOTH on a Paradigm Studio 100V2 which had I think 5 drivers. Comparing both it was interesting - the Musical Fidelity had air and a more expansive sound - audiophiles eat that up - they want their soundstage to be massive (whether it is real or not). The Sugden sounded small - but it had vastly better and deeper bass response. Perhaps non frequency limited. Whatever it was it had ambiance of a different stripe. Now I greatly preferred the Sugden amp and still wish they kept it because of its valve like presentation (moreso than the A21a). Yes it's less Accurate and you could even complain that it was veiled but it did smoaky lounge music stupidly well. I would give up the hi-fi pyrotechnics of the MF amp any day. But guess what - the guy who traded that Sugden into Soundhounds traded it FOR the Musical Fidelity! So be it. It's tough for gear to do everything at an elite level. Often the bigger speakers lose the smaller speaker's strengths. The SET amps sound great but they run into power issues and compress earlier than a flagship Boulder or Krell. @Slippers-on is correct that one thing may sound nice and warm but to get that it often loses transparency. The key is to simply try stuff. Try the Harbeth with a variety of gear and see what happens. Maybe on the weekend I'll see if I can try a set on some Nagra amps or something.
That looks quite an amp! Midrange definitely seemed to be 30.1's 'thing', and I can imagine them working great with a well-integrated sub. Glad you're enjoying them.
P3s do, IME, reach their outer comfort zone quite quickly when pushed - at least having heard them with Croft, Nait XS, and Rega Elicit R amps. With heavier, denser music more volume just meant more compression - nowhere for the dynamics and impact to go. Lovely in their comfort zone though, as you say.
I've really enjoyed reading this thread ( all 19 pages of them ). I'm currently running a pair of SHL5+ with a Kinki EX-M1 200W integrated and i'm seriously enjoying the sound ( it does sound best on high gain mode, in which i've solved the issue via a -15 db Rothwell attenuator ). Previously i was using a Line Magnetic LM518Ia and while it was tonally glorious, it did not have the speed or attack that the 200W SS amplifier has. Perhaps the issue lies with me and the weird spectrum of music that i listen to ( when the wife is not around i like to play obscure 90s German Techno at slightly higher than comfortable volumes ). But when it comes to Jazz Quartets and Mac DeMarco the 518Ia will surely please. I have an old Almarro 318B (18W SET) that i have in the shop being serviced now and we'll see how it slots into the system again.
Good grief - the exact same sort of articles are published almost every month about new condo buildings being put up in the hundreds and thousands in all the major cities in Canada and the U.S. Europe and the UK don’t have a monopoly on small apartments or small condos. Suburban tract houses in Canada and the U.S. continue to be built around 2,600 square feet on average - large no doubt, and significantly larger than any new tracts built in Europe or the UK and that has always been the case. Get back into the city though and new build unit sizes drop dramatically because buildable acreage is at a premium and everything has to go vertical therefore and the consequent average height of a Toronto condo tower built over the past twenty years is 35 storeys, with 1 and 2 bedroom condo sizes currently averaging 585 and 725 square feet respectively. Small again. Europe and the UK do not have a monopoly on any of this. There’s no question that overall, the average size middle-income detached, semi-detached or row has always been larger in Canada and the U.S. compared to Europe and the UK. The same difference does not apply to apartments and condos however. That difference is much smaller still. Worse yet, the size gap for new apartment and high-rise condo builds (over the past 18 years or so) has been closing as Canadian and U.S. architects, builders and governing authorities that provide building permits continue their ‘race’ to find out just how small a new condo can be before prospective buyers turn away. Again, Europe and the UK don’t have a monopoly on relatively small size living spaces. Exceptions abound, including the tens and hundreds of thousands of homes similar in size to those of friends in the UK and France as I described previously. An enormous number of people in the UK and Europe think that Canadians and Americans all live in massive houses, and a surprising number of them who travel from London or Paris (to give but two of hundreds of examples) seem faintly shocked when they arrive in Toronto or Vancouver and exclaim what are all these thousands of tower blocks!? Loudspeakers have to fit no doubt. Nearfield and midfield listening positions aren’t the exclusive province of European and UK audiophiles, nor are mid-to-farfield listening positions the exclusive province of Canadian and U.S. audiophiles. Apartment and condo living typically imposes on sensible UK, European, Canadian and American audiophiles almost precisely identical considerations.
Thanks for the suggestions, i'm not convinced I want or need a new amplifier yet. I'll see how my Rogue Audio amp handles the 5s when they get here. It did very well with my former C7ES3s and I have confidence it will do well with the 5s. My main reason for SS would be to increase dynamics and bass extension / impact and deliver the kind of bass the SHL5+s are capable of. Power and authority would rule the day - e.g. 150 - 200 quality WPC. Possibly a pair of the new Benchmark amps which are spectacular sounding. BTW Harbeth's voicing is not so much BBC dip these days as it is mid bass bump and cabinet warmth- in varying degree depending on model. The SHL5+ and 30.2 measure relatively flat from midbass and up except for a vert slight 1-2 db reduction trough between 2-4KHz or so- and the dip caused by the super tweeter interaction on the 5's. The mid bass bump can be extensive though- +4db @ 100Hz on the 30.2s and a +5db plateau at 100Hz on the SHL5+. Gone are the days of severe dips in the upper midrange region common in past iterations of BritMons. It seems a battle of preference as to which poison you can tolerate over the long haul. I've tried to live with speakers that had a flat, monitor style presentation and although I liked them a lot, there were recordings that sounded too thin and somewhat shrill and less natural overall. I have chosen to swallow the less bitter (to my ears) poison of an occasional recording sounding a little too polite and soft. These different voicing philosophies seem to fit right into your many rooms and systems with different strengths idea. I can see that but for me I need to focus on getting the most out of just one.
The good thing about tube amps is the capability to change them and affect the sound. Also cables, speaker position and listening position. Even the grilles on / off make a difference. Chances are that the P3s have a warmer sound and that a higher damping factor may not help much. But different tubes (e.g. an Amperex NOS) can really open up the midrange. As can removing the grilles (mandatory for Harbeth IMHO), proper speaker positioning away from walls and tweeter at ear level, toe in just right. Different interconnect cables can also help- e.g. audience, nordost. I would recommend another round of demonstration trying to make certain that the conditions are as good as they can be to avoid loss of midrange. You have to "work" a system to get it to sound the way you want it too. Tube offer such a spacious soundstage that I would not ever want to lose that quality. However, the P3's do seem the softest of the range and would be more challenging to work with. I would also suggest you listen to the C7ES3. Much more capable with rock music.
