the Harbeth manual says 2 meters or 6 1/2 feet between speakers and your ears should be 9.8 feet from a line formed by speaker center to speaker center. https://harbeth.co.uk/userguide/
So, if I'm seated at 25 meters of speakers which are 25 meters apart I'm in a near field listening situation ? As a non-english it isn't really my interpretation of the term "near" ;-)
@avanti1960 It is from a cable manufacturer... @ Harbeth user guide: It is an example, not a recommendation. https://www.thomann.de/gb/onlineexpert_page_monitor_speakers_nearfield_midfield.html
Ah, this… presumably because George Cardas the inventor of the “matched propagation conductor” (among other meaningless but nonetheless patentable so-called inventions based on pure thought and zero functional value or practical application other than generation of profits) put it up on his web site? You can patent electronic wave massage booties for parrots too if you like because the patent office just doesn’t care if anything actually works or whether anything is actually utter fiction. Cardas seems to have decided (if only for the sake of filler content on his web site) that 1:1:1 is a ratio that applies even though his vacant web site drawing is missing upwards of eleven additional and crucial parameters needed to determine optimal speaker positioning at any field depth in any given room. I counter your link with: Studio Monitor Placement — Finding the “Sweet Spot” | Universal Audio …which is a good article that accounts for a variety of factors that, in any sensible review of a room and its available listener and speaker positions, should serve audiophiles very well. Nothing to do with 1:1:1. And then there is: https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1019848/FULLTEXT02 …from 2015 for some perspective provided by supervised, university-level farfield listening research by a (now established) engineer. Of course there are far more validated articles and studies - the list is long. But this is far less technical, uses far more applied practice, and reads well and accurately: Types of Studio Monitors and Which to Choose for Home Studios …that provides Izotope’s widely accepted and straightforward take on the subject, though you have to scroll halfway down the large article to get to, “Near field monitors generally have smaller drivers and are placed closer to the listener (around 2-3 feet away). Their proximity means that more direct sound from the monitor will hit the listener’s ears, rather than reflected sound from surfaces in the room. Near fields will seem to increase the ratio of direct to reflected sound.” I think that is the simplest and most accurate definition of all. It’s think it’s also the most widely used definition, even though a lot of people may not realize it, because a typical home desktop or laptop computer setup with speakers flanking a video monitor is the most prevalent sort of nearfield audio setup everywhere. Some such setups actually work out to 1:1:1, but only sometimes. That’s another reason why that ratio is not a rule and isn’t an acceptable definition for “nearfield”, George Cardas’ blathering web site filler notwithstanding.
@Agitater and @Old Shatterhand are absolutely right -- nearfield means you are NEAR the speakers! It doesn't have anything to do with the size of the room or whether you're sitting in a triangle relative to the speakers. You sit in the nearfield to reduce the effect of the room on what you hear (particularly first reflections).
exactly! since the whole point is to try to reduce room interactions, it'll vary based on the size of the room. as others have noted, near is generally considered no more than six feet or so.
I used this when setting up my nearfield area a few months ago and couldn't be happier with the outcome. I don't have Harbeths, but they're on my list of options. Anyway, this past weekend i had some buddies over and they wanted to listen. I figured they would listen to a song or two and be like "yeah this sounds great" and be done with it, but it was quite the opposite. Almost 2 hours of them swapping seats listening to various tracks. Their facial expressions and response towards it really blew my mind haha. This is the first time anyone aside from me or my wife has listened to my NF setup and they are still texting me songs, asking me questions etc. So yeah, that setup guide... great.
When I use my Harbeth C7 with my low powered Cary CAD-300SEI, (btw, they sound wonderful together against all odds) I sit at a distance of 6 feet while the distance between the speakers is 6 feet I had to measure that right now and it surprised me that I was using Cardas “near field” set up without realizing it. Distance from the back wall is 3’ 6”. The Harbeth is one of the very few speakers that I have experienced that sound absolutely fabulous in a near field setup. Robert E. Greene used to listen to his Harbeth that way and he is the one who persuaded me to try. My Stirling LS3/6, beautiful sounding as they are, they need a distance of at least 8 feet or otherwise they lack coherence.
@5-String The distance between the high-frequency driver and mid-low-frequency driver of the C7 is smaller compared to the distance between the super-high-frequency driver and the mid-low-frequency driver of the LS 3/6 that is the reason because the Harbeth works better. With a SHL5+ you will have to sit further away too compared to the C7. I also can say without proofing it based on physic or measurements that bigger enclosures are easier to locate if you sit closer compared to smaller enclosures. I can spot the enclosures of my Altec 604 E Superduplex easily, when I sit 2,5-3m away despite its coax system, with 3,3-3,5m they disappear.
I call my setup "nearfield " 9ft from the speakers with about 8ft between the speakers...to me it's nearfield because i could set it up to be seated much further away. relativity
Nearfield means that the sound coming directly from the speaker is louder than the reflected sounds. Hence, if you have a room that absorbs most of the reflections, you can have a nearfield environment at a fairly large distance from the speaker. It is not only the case that satisfactory nearfield listening is dependent on the drivers blending correctly in that listen range, it is also dependent on the relative volume levels of the drivers being satisfactory. High frequencies are more quickly dissipated than low frequencies and so each speaker is designed to have the right tonal balance (in the designer's opinion) at a particular listening distance. If you sit closer than that distance, the speaker might be a bit brighter than the designer intended, and unless that added brightness is to your taste, you will need to attenuate those frequencies (it helps if your speaker has controls for its drivers). Some speaker also are designed to compensate for floor bounce and ceiling bounce reflections, which because of a longer path than the direct signal, are at least partially out of phase with the direct signal; if you pick a listening distance that is way different from the expected listening distance, such compensation may also be off from what is in the speaker design. But, in any case, it doesn't hurt to try nearfield listening even with large speakers that are supposedly meant to be played at some great distance. You can do things to compensate for any problems, such as changing toe-in and rake angle and other set up arrangements.
This is a good point and what you say makes sense. On the other hand, Prof. Robert E. Greene, reviewer for TAS, was listening to 40s nearfield, iirc. Not sure of the exact distance but there was a photo of his set up online. Also, Tom Malin has this great thread on What's Best Forum where he narrates his adventures with the 40.2 and listening in the nearfield. Harbeth Monitor 40.2 As @Larry I wrote above, it does not hurt to try even with large speakers.
Where is the master definition on the meaning of near? I bet it's different for horseshoes, hand grenades and airliners. But seriously, in this case the meaning is near field. Not near speaker. In other words there is a range and that range is not set in stone. I have learned this at audio shows where the Harbeth representative said that even the 40.2 models are near field monitors and the field can be quite large, in this case 12 feet away. I learned this at a dealer where Mr. Joseph of Joseph audio set up his Pulsar speakers in a "near field" setup including tape marks where that final 1/4 inch was critical- yet the chairs were 20 feet away. Yet they can be studio or desktop arrangements too. Near FIELD is a philosophy that has a wide range of possible distances.
Right!....i like to think of it as "best seat in the house" at the local bar when i was(much) younger....perspective.
Interesting stuff. I personally do not set mine in the 1:1:1 pattern but many people do, it is widely respected. I like a triangle where the base = height, not equal legs. At its essence a near field is a prioritization of the speakers and listener with an emphasis on sound quality that avoids room interactions. It has to be a range because different speakers demand more distance for the sound to be balanced and coherent at the listening position. E.g. an Adam A7X monitor vs an ATC SCM110ASL. How big is the range? Good question but it is larger than most believe according to people who do pro and consumer audio for a living.
This conversation has taken a turn. You can call it near field, you can call it mine field, you can call it football field, you can call it Westfield (the town I live in), or you can call it whatever you want. Near field listening is well defined, and it ain't 6+ feet from speakers. But call it what feels good. Carry on.
Recordings are a big part of our little hobby,I'm very happy with my setup.But i certainly find myself leaning forward for some recordings to find that sweet spot where the singer/instrumentalist snaps into my listening room....worth it every time though.
Really? How far back are you? Speakers 9 ft across tweeter to tweeter and I sit 9 ft back. Sweet spot always there.
There is no such thing as too large of speakers in a not so large room. But that does depend on the speaker! Curiously you can listen to at least some large speakers in a nearfield listening experience. When I listen to the Altec A7’s in the evening, I pull them out from the wall and reposition them so they are on the same plane and about 4' to 5' apart. This gives me a nice even sound field from the sofa where I took this photo from, which is about 10' to 12' of where the speakers would be repositioned. Now, the door in the background, leads to the kitchen, which leads to the refrigerator where I keep the beer. Naturally, I have to walk between the repositioned speakers to get through to the kitchen. Curiously, I would stop about 3 to 4 feet from the A7’s and listen. This was the perfect nearfield position to listen to the A7’s in a nearfield listening position. Sometimes, I would stop and sit down on the arm of the blue-green sofa and listen for a bit. It wouldn't seem that you could listen to theater speakers that were designed to project sound 75' or more out into an audience at this close of a distance, but you can. The sound is perfectly blended between the woofer and the HF horn.
Looks like we have arrived at similar distances lol (not too surprised)...but yep not all recordings are perfect....so i (occasionally) sit up a little...perfect for reaching my scotch
