That comment is based on my experience running Sugden into a bunch of different speakers. Any speakers that dropped to 4 ohm, it couldn't power them sufficiently. Any speaker that stayed at 6 ohms or higher it did a great job. Of course, this doesn't mean the amp will be unable to power every speaker that drops to 4 ohms (my sample size is very small), but I think it's a pretty good indication. Speakers I used: Quad 12L2 Dynaudio Special Forty Neat Motive SX2 PMC TB2i Sugden A3 ProAc Tablette 2000 Signature The first two it couldn't power sufficiently. The other four it did a great job. Used an A21ai - 23 watts per channel. Thanks for the suggestions! Never really thought of raising my cables, but I guess that could be done very cheaply and might be something for me to try one day. I used to have bi-wire cables but when I moved my audio rack so that it was not in between my speakers, I needed much longer cables so I bought these Analysis Plus cables that were a good value. I'll have to see if in the long run I use speakers with dual binding posts. There is a good chance the speakers I opt for will only have single binding posts. I will keep TARA in mind for a future cable upgrade. I was planning on buying some Audioquest solid core cables that I can build myself with their solderless termination.
Past few days I've been going back and forth between my Harbeth P3's, Spendor A3's and ProAc Tab 2000's. Along with my two amp options. Conclusions: Harbeth is very clear, vivid, and direct sounding, though this can sometimes dip into brightness. The imaging and air around instruments is great. The speakers are also very revealing in terms of what is upstream. The best match was my Unison integrated, which is the more relaxed, natural sounding amp. With my separates, the sound could be a little hard at times. Of course, I don't need to get into how real the P3's can sound in terms of the midrange and especially with instruments like acoustic guitar and the human voice. Coming into this I would have said a strength of the ProAcs was their clarity. However, when I A/B them against the P3's, the ProAcs sound veiled in comparison. That said, they still sound open with plenty of space in the soundstage. It's really only in a direct comparison where I notice that maybe they aren't as adept in terms of clarity as I thought. But, they are warmer than the Harbeths, with better dynamics and scale. As great as the Harbeths sound on like 80-90% of music, the limitations show up on the other 10-20%. The scale of well recorded piano is lacking. Overall bass is lacking. Dynamic passages on classical music. The drums on Take Five sound a lot smaller than I'd like with the P3's. The Spendor sits in between the P3's and Tab 2000's when it comes to warmth and clarity. Voices and instruments sounded more live and with more accurate weight and scale (do I say the p word? yes, more palpable). But, in my room at least, they lacked some openness and the sound sometimes can be congested. I'm not sure if they just need more room or if it's the larger cabinet that I was hearing. If this wasn't an issue, I think I would have preferred them to the other speakers in this comparison. Going forward, this all makes me think that the P3's are simply too small. However, if I can get that sound in a more complete package that would probably be where I'd want to go. So maybe a larger pair of Harbeths or the Spendor 3/1 is what I'll be looking at. It's not really deeper bass that I want, but more scale and greater ease to the sound; an effortless sort of quality. Maybe I'll throw the AN/K on that list too, given that a local dealer I often deal with now carries the brand. So I think in 2023 I will likely sell/trade my power amp and speakers and put that towards a set of speakers that should be a significant upgrade. Upgrading here and my analogue front end (phonostage upgrade) I think could be just about end game for me. I want to at some point forget about the gear and simply focus 100% on music. Leaning to keeping my integrated though I will likely also keep the ARC preamp and then one day down the road try a different power amp with it, as I don't want to abandon the idea of separates too quickly. Only issue with separates would be space. I have space now but I am moving to a full width phonostage and that'll take up the space where I can put a power amp. Only way to make it all fit would be to stack my tuner on top of my Oppo 95, which might (or might not) be ok.
Interesting that the Special Forty's needed more power as I thought they were a fairly easy load. What did you hear with the amp underpowering them?
With both the Quad and Dynaudio speakers, it was a bloated, boomy, sluggish kind of bass. It was not subtle at all, though it was much more of an issue with the Quads.
[QUOTE="Used an A21ai - 23 watts per channel. Thanks for the suggestions! Never really thought of raising my cables, but I guess that could be done very cheaply and might be something for me to try one day. I used to have bi-wire cables but when I moved my audio rack so that it was not in between my speakers, I needed much longer cables so I bought these Analysis Plus cables that were a good value. I'll have to see if in the long run I use speakers with dual binding posts. There is a good chance the speakers I opt for will only have single binding posts. I will keep TARA in mind for a future cable upgrade. I was planning on buying some Audioquest solid core cables that I can build myself with their solderless termination.[/QUOTE] Re: Raising cables I offer it is something which should be done before any further changes in your system electronics, speaker or cables wise. you can use anything which will not conduct static as the spacer. (This tweak is really only for systems where the cables lay across carpet, wood and stone / tile do not conduct static, so no sonic benefit) Re: Sugden A21 The latest Signature version is a significant "step up" in terms of resolution, dynamics and ability to drive more complex loads... I think it is worth a listen if you are thinking of changing amplification. Re: Audioquest I have found most cables with various size conductors sound "confused" in the end. Yes, "skin effect" is a thing, but when different sized strands are used, then the signal starts traveling at different "speeds" through each strand. In the end, each strand does in fact carry / conduct the complete signal. (The nonsense that the bass goes to the thick strand and the highs go to the thin strand is simply that, utter nonsense). It is better to simply have multiples of the same size strand and call it a day... don't try to "over engineer" things. With that said, maybe you do / will like the sound of the AQ cables, to which I cast no shade / dispersion... they have their sound / voicing... I simply can't get behind their engineering nonsense Re: TARA Labs I have been using their cables since 1997 I invested significant money in a pair of their The One Bi-wire spkr cables in the early 00's and have been using them ever since (20+ years) They have allowed every pair of ProAc's (I have had various models exclusively since 1992 ~ nothing sounds more like live music to my ear) to perform to their maximum potential. While they cost as much as a pair of speakers at the time, over 20 years they have ended up costing less than $0.80/day and I expect to have them for another 20 years... they have been worth more than their cost... Re: ProAc's "Properly" Bi-Wiring then has dramatically opened up the top end of every pair I have ever heard By "properly" I mean having the same cables for both the hi and low posts ~ going back to the comments above about AQ mixed diameter / thickness strands within a cable carries over to / is expanded (compounded) by adding different windings, dielectrics, etc in different cables (even from within the same brand) Good luck and happy listening !
...hiding gem for many weeks now with my P3, I don't even bother using the amp (A21 i S ) with another speakers pair (yet). The sound from this combo pleases me as is. ...
I just took my first (and likely last) trip to the Harbeth User Group tonight. Those guys are real cutups. Basically you are intellectually lazy if you use tube amps or prefer one amp over another. Ironic since my 5's sound better with my tube amp. It's so obvious that different amps sound different, seems an odd thing to argue. And I could care less if I'm hearing my speakers the way the speaker designer wants me to. What an odd world over there. Not for me. Thank god for the SHF.
yeah i remember a few years back asking if anyone had heard anything about the rumord-but-not-officially-announced XD's on the HUG and my post was quickly deleted by a moderator, probably AS himself.
My experience with the SHL5's led me to sell my tube amp, but I doubt that the Doge10 and the Cary have the same sound signature . I am starting to look at tube pre-amps though... but they need to have balance outputs so I can take advantage of the inputs on the Ayre. Sadly that eliminates a rather large portion of the market . :>( Every speaker I've owned has benefitted from a sub... the Rel is so flexible that I've been able to integrate it with all my previous speakers, be it bookshelf or floor-standing. I've thought of getting two, but my room is too oddly shaped to get balanced bass output from two subs. So far having just one in the corner is doing the job just fine. My prediction : The Harbeth's stay and the Klipsch's go
That's a realistic possibility. If you want a high quality tube preamp I'm going to be selling my Sonic Frontiers tube Line 2 preamp. Crystal clear and transparent. Has 2 XLR inputs and a XLR pre-out. Has a 10lb separate power supply that was rebuilt in 2018 by Parts connexion. Build quality is off the charts. PM me if you are interested. I think I'm in the minority on preferring a tube amp with Harbys, but I know what I hear and it's a magical combination.
I will offer; you are comparing a range of speaker values with Tab 2000 (@ $1k in '00), not certain which P3 version (anyway $2k +) and Spendor A3 (@ $1.5k). Also, the ferofluid in the Tab 2000's tweeters are very likely dried out at this point in time, which would dull their output... All that is to say, I encourage you to listen to current offerings from each brand... they are all good companies Re: amplification, there are many great integrated amps available with built in phono preamps; the Sugden A21 Signature, Plinius, Naim, and on... you might consider selling all of your separates and interconnects and 3 pair of speakers... Doing so will let you focus on better integrated and speakers (since buying fewer boxes). Anyway, just thinking out loud.... Happy listening
not as far as I am concerned. tubes and harbs are magic. i could have easily stopped at the rogue audio cronus magnum and harbeth c7ES33.
been there a few times myself. definitely cannot challenge mr shaw's views. one question I asked was the torque spec for the C7ES3 woofer screws because mine arrived loose from the factory. no responses and deleted after a few days.
Appreciate the thoughts! I don't really think the speakers are out of whack price-wise. The ProAc's today would sell for $2K at least (probably quite a bit more considering ProAc's prices - D2R, which I'd love to hear, is $6K!!). The Spendor in Canada was a nearly $3K speaker. So to me these are all in the same league. But it's always a little apples to oranges when you compare speakers. I'm not really trying to make the comparison "fair", as if I was a review publication. I'm just trying to find the speakers that move me the most by grabbing what comes up for sale when the price is right and I have some interest in hearing them. The excess gear will be sold off soon (3 speakers, power amp, phonostage, turntable, but I'll hang onto the ARC preamp just in case). I am not looking for an integrated with a built in phono preamp though. I will be using the money I get from selling the excess gear towards significant upgrades of my speakers and phonostage (not sideways moves but hopefully an upward move). I'm moving to a phonostage that offers more versatility (MM/MC, loading options, mono switch). Also, I'm quite happy with my integrated, assuming I opt to say with one box. It's Cdn$3K so I think it plays in the same league as Sugden and Naim (not sure about Plinius). To upgrade the sound I think I'd have to spend a lot more. I compared the Unison to my Sugden A21 and a Naim Nait XS2 and preferred the Unison. It is powerful at about 95 watts into 8 ohms but also provides a nice blend of detail and refinement. It's more Sugden than Naim, but it sits somewhere in between. The ability to roll tubes is also something I enjoy without the annoyances that come with power tubes. I would not hesitate moving back to Sugden though if the speakers I end up with are easy enough to drive. Probably to the A21 Signature, as you suggest. For now though, not really entertaining any amp changes as my focus is on speakers. I love the P3's sound, I just want more of it than a speaker that size can provide.
tube peamp here(though not a "tubey" preamp)and triodes on the input of my power amp,again not "tubey" so you are not alone
Yeah, Harbeths seem to make friends easily. The 30.2XD's sound fab with the Freya+ preamp in my little dungeon space.
I do have a pretty nice sub, yes. But I think I'm hoping for a bit more than a sub can help with. An overall sense of scale and effortlessness that a larger driver and box can provide, not just at the lowest frequencies. I want my sub to pick up where the speakers drop off.
