Has CD player technology progressed so much in 30 years?

Welcome my new (NOS) universal digital player :

 

@CMT , there's a lot of great info and advice in this thread - in particular, the point many have made that modern disc players often have improved DACs in them but also cheaper build quality and less-robust transports.

That Pioneer CD player you have is a beauty. Its built-in DAC is no slouch, and while I personally prefer the sound of the best current-day DACs, the progress in DAC sound from the 1990s to today is by no means linear - different DACs each have their fans and detractors, and it is by no means guaranteed that you will prefer a modern DAC to the one in your Pioneer unit.

Second, since you have your Pioneer feeding its digital output to your receiver, as you noted yourself, you're not even using the Pioneer's DAC. You are just it just as a transport - a disc spinner and digital-data reader. In that capacity your Pioneer will eventually fail as its laser assembly will die. But in the meantime it's an extremely well-built machine and therefore is ideal for your specific use of it as a disc transport.

Third, I don't know what DAC is built in to your receiver, but Outlaw is a very good brand and unless I'm mistaken your receiver is a current or recent model and therefore its built-in DAC, while perhaps not top of the line or the most current generation, probably is a very decent DAC. So if you are happy with the sound, I wouldn't be in a big rush to upgrade it unless you have the spare cash and you would find trying out a new DAC to be a fun experience.

If you want to do that, there are plenty of wonderful external DACs out there, which you could put between your Pioneer and your Outlaw in your playback chain, and might very well give you a somewhat better result than just using the Outlaw's DAC. Just bear in mind that DAC swapping can produce a major change in the sound... or a minor change in the sound... or no discernible change in the sound.

Finally, I would echo (no pun intended) the comment earlier in the thread that often one's upgrade funds are better spent on room treatments to improve the frequency response and imaging of your speakers by reducing unwanted sonic reflections and resonances. My only caution there would be that usually the most important frequencies to treat are bass frequencies - and these are also the most difficult to treat, requiring the largest, thickest and (if you are not DIYing them) most expensive panels and treatments.

I guess overall I would say have fun and experiment - but don't underestimate the fun and joy of a system you already like the sound of, and don't underestimate the fantastic build quality of your Pioneer CD player!

 

I had a Pioneer DV-414 DVD player I used for CD's only and it ran like a top until my wife's walked into the drawer while I was changing the music! My Rega Apollo died twice in four years.

 

Big YES to that !

 

I guess cult status was the wrong word, but it's renowned enough that people would make counterfeit chips, due to it's popularity.

This list is amazing. There's a nice graph on a good amount of CD players that have used this chip. It's amazing how many excellent CD players this chip have found it's way into.

Overview of Philips TDA1541 based cdplayers and D/A converters

This forum has quite a talk on this as well.

In praise of the Philips TDA1541/A/S1/S2 chips.

An audiogon discussion on this chip as well.

Why all the love for the TDA1541? | Audiogon Discussion Forum

This guy has a bit of history of the chip as well. He has a business as well that I am not related to, just liked his writing

TDA1541A

Is this the only chip to make good music, no, but it seems one good way to go.

Mark

 

Probably the consequence of its cult status.

 

Thanks very much for this. A lot of good advice here.

 

What non fiberglass room treatments are you using?

 

This is an interesting thread and I've learned a thing or two. But just so I can stay up with definitions being used, I like to ask about the term "transport."

CDP "transport only" manufacturers mean that their units do not have DACs, thus they produce digital-only signals. So, when saying that the problem with "newer CD players is the transport longevity," are you referring to the CD in-out drawer? The CD spinning mechanism? The laser? The chip electronics? Or do you simply mean that newer CDPs and CDT-only machines, for any number of reasons, are unlikely to last nearly as long as players of the past?

The CD transport-only machines have only one job to do. For $500+, why couldn't almost any manufacturer make a solid, long-lasting unit?

And, also, are any problems solved by removing the auto CD insertion. For example, top-loaders and Naim's manual pull-out CD shelf? Thanks.

 

I am referring to the tray/laser block/spinning mechanism. i.e. the similar to the CD drive in a desktop PCs. All the things that make the CD spin and be read.

Years ago most of the big brand electronics makers made their own CD drives - Matsushita/Panasonic/Technics, Philips/Marantz, Sony, Pioneer, Hitachi, Victor-JVC, ,Sanyo, Sharp, Denon/Marantz, Teac, LG, Samsung, etc. A lot of these drives were OEM'd to audiophile equipment makers who designed the rest or modded an mass market design. Today very few, save for Yamaha, Panasonic, and some others, make their equipment anymore. Most is contracted out to Chinese assemblers or a large Korean OEM with Chinese factories that also owns Sherwood.

Now there's only a few left and most are using comno DVD/BD drives made either for PCs or game consoles or Chinese small OEMs. Panasonic and Sony may be some of the last still making drives that aren't cheaper PC or low quality ones.

For PCs, LG (who acquired Hitachi's drive business), Pioneer, Panasonic, Asus, and Lite-On are the remaining PC optical drive makers.

not sure what the last question is asking.

 

The fact the HS-7 is still going all these years showcases the build quality (I'd keep it). If you want to experiment in changing the sound try an outboard DAC.

Think the HS-7 comes with the BB PCM1702 although a DAC is only part of the story.

 

In the end, I decided to keep it. That post is several months old. I made a few more "tweaks" to the system, which now is the Pioneer CD player, a Rega Planar 6 turntable with an Ortophon Bronze 2M cartridge, and, just this week, I even upgraded the LS50s for KEF R3s.

 

Thanks, you've pretty much answered it. The question was (basically restated), if drawers and rollers were removed from CDPs and all disc loading/removal was done manually, would that make a difference in the units' longevity. But your statement above suggests that the inferior "laser block/spinning mechanism" is just as much at risk for failure. So, no, it doesn't sound like the "manual load only" approach would help.

 

I'm kind of curious as to how that old pioneers DAC stacks up against the Outlaws one. I have a 2018 Onkyo 7030 CD player and I like it's DAC better than the one in my Outlaw 2160. I do use the Outlaws DAC for hooking up my PC and my TV and DVD player runs through it, so I do like it and it gets a ton of use. I also have a Denon 160o SACD player, which I run off the analog outs. I also have a Schiit Modi 3 DAC, it's reasonable price and I like it a lot. I'm suspect of audible differences and diminishing returns on $1000+ DACs. I'm not willing to pay the money to find out for myself... If I do stumble into a chance to actually do a free A-B test between say a Chord Quety vs Modi 3 and the difference grabs me, only then will I take the plunge..... Lot of marketing in the DAC world... not a believer in magic cables/break in periods outside speakers and tubes/bi wiring etc.....I won't argue these points, YMMV.

I think some DACs have different sounds because of things in the signal path that have nothing to do with the conversion....One could add a buffering stage to get a similar effect...JMO

 

Well, the DAC in the Outlaw seems quite good to me. That's what I'm using. I've got the old Pioneer deck going in through one of the optical inputs so that it uses the onboard DAC in the amplifier, but, to be honest, when I changed it over from the Pioneer DAC, I didn't hear much of a difference. That Pioneer deck is actually very good, considering its age. As I noted earlier in this thread, it was about $1,000 in around 1995, which was at the high end of the everyday consumer range of decks. I've been very happy with it over the years.

 

The Outlaws DAC is pretty well thought of, including in this forum's Outlaw 2160 thread that I started. That said, not surprising to me your pioneer stacks up.
Outlaw RR2160 thread.*

 

It would help against failure of a motarized disc tray. It doesn't guarantee that there won't be any failures elsewhere. Rega is a good example of that. Great loading mechanism, but the software running the thing is (was?) buggy as hell.

So I believe it does help, and I also believe that these players make it easier to clean the lens. A vastly smarter option in my book. Another plus is that they are simply cooler looking and more interesting to operate.

 

The challenge with the latest CDPs is the transports. I see a lot of cheap-as-chips transports mated to sexy casework and high performance electronics. They are not even dedicated CD transports...often DVD units. There does not seem to be any middle ground...either these super cheap transports or very rare/expensive units. A few years back I received a new CDP for my office that was DOA and the dealer was shocked. It probably did not survive the shipping even with foam and double-boxing. Then the replacement needed a new transport a few months later. It sounded excellent though.

 

I have owned several CD players and of course heard others at friends’ houses, audio shows, etc. My system is now kind of a mixture of old and new. I have a 20 year old Audio Research Reference 2 Mk.II preamp, which I absolutely love. A McCormack DNA 1 amp that has been upgraded by Steve McCormack several times. A new VPI Prime Signature turntable with Fatboy tonearm I recently purchased, with a new Sumiko Starling cartridge, which I highly recommend. A 10 or so year old Audio Research PH7 phono preamp. And a newish pair of Goldenear Triton 2+ speakers. I mostly play vinyl, but sometimes I get lazy and put on CDs.

I now own a McCormack UDP-1 multi-disc player, which I will probably not replace, and I will tell you why. Prior to this CD player I owned a top-of-the-line Meridian transport and DAC, which had a wonderful, musical sound. I can’t remember the model numbers, but I compared them with newer models that came out and I did not think the added price was worth it. One of the ways I evaluate my CD player is by playing CD and vinyl of the same recording to hear the difference. With my present relatively mid-priced vinyl setup, I do not think any CD player on earth could sound as good. At least that is from my own personal experience.

Although the Meridian gear was getting long-in-the-tooth, I loved its sound, even though I knew it was on the overly romantic side of the spectrum, as compared to a Krell CD player of the same vintage. And I was not willing to shell out tens of thousands of dollars for a minor upgrade that would get me maybe 10% closer to a good vinyl sound.

But I was helping a friend buy a new, somewhat expensive system ($40K), and we were at a high-end store evaluating Wilson Watt-Puppies. The audio store carried very high-end CD players, such as Jadis that cost about $100K for a transport and DAC. I was very impressed with the CD player coming through the Watt Puppies and I asked him what he used to show off the Wilsons. He said he no longer bothered with the high-end Jadis because the McCormack sounded just as good. And it did! It was clean, yet musical, not at all cold like other clean-sounding CD players I had heard. Plus, it was only $3,600. And it played SACD and DVD audio. When I saw a demo selling on eBay for $2400, I jumped.

One of my test recordings for comparing a CD to vinyl is “Getz/Gilberto,” because the SACD has such a lovely sound. The McCormack comes very, very close. I called Steve McCormack to ask him about upgrades and I was told to put on a new power cord, isolation feet and an expensive fuse. They helped bring the sound up a notch. The McCormack (which got very good reviews) is so close in sound to vinyl, and I cannot imagine that any CD rig on earth would sound better than my vinyl setup, which I think is pretty damned good. Especially with my new Prime Signature and Sumko Starling. So, I’m not even bothering to sample more expensive CD players. My guess is that a very expensive CD player make the sound a little better for many thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars. Since I mostly listen to vinyl, I’d rather be listening to music than sweating over a few percentage points improvement.

 

Don't know why this has suddenly come back from the dead. My original post was from more than two years ago now. I've learned a lot since then. My current system is as indicated in my profile.....

 

New CD players don't sound better than old. It's all about system matching and preferences. If your Pioneer is solid and reliable and you like the sound of it, keep it. You have it hooked up now via digital, so you are using the DAC in your new AMP. Compare that to the CD player's analog output. The difference you hear between those two should give you an idea how a modern CD player may sound vs the old. The digital out to your new amp being somewhat representative of what a new cd player could sound like.

 

Again, this original post was from more than two years ago. My digital front end is now a Cambridge Audio CXC as CD transport and a Chord Qutest DAC, which I'm very, very happy with. These are going through a pair of KEF R3s (the KEF LS50s I originally bought are in a secondary system now. I'm still using the Pioneer CD player in that secondary system and it all sounds more than good enough for the upstairs system). My main analog front end is now a Rega Planar 6 with Ortofon Bronze 2M cartridge through a Graham Slee Accession MM phono stage (a Planar 3 and Parks Puffin in the secondary system). The only thing I still have from the system described in the initial post here is the Outlaw rr2160 amp, which I'm probably going to make the focus of my next upgrade. So, the questions posed above here are no longer relevant. That said, thanks for your thoughts.

 

TT rig?

usually TT First
Cartridge/ stylus next
Amp
Speakers last