Have Tubes become "Gimmicky"? What is the TUBE sound?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by DaleClark, May 22, 2022.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DaleClark

    DaleClark Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Tube dacs, phono pres, you name it. I'm surprised somebody has not come out with a tube turntable (although McIntosh has that all-in-one tubed device).

    Back when I had a Peachtree Nova Pre, you could turn the tube on or off. IMO, they should have named the switch "Noise on or off".

    You see the cheap $100 small tubed amps on Amazon, etc

    Plus, what is the "tube" sound? My idea is a MacIntosh MC275 or vintage Fisher or Marantz tube amp.

    Is the romantic tube sound everyone tries to achieve the 50's 60's BBC radio, Abbey Road, Columbia and RCA studios sound?

    Many tubed devices have reviews that state they do not sound like a tube device.

    Are PS Audio BHK amps TRUE tube amps or some type of hybrid (tube buffer, etc)? Same with Schitt?

    Do the tubes in the IFI, Project dacs& phono stages really add anything (besides noise)?

    Many audiophiles buy cables, power conditioners. One reason to reduce noise caused by environment (shielding) and hose power line issues. But they are more than happy adding tubed devices that can be noisy and have matching issues, etc.

    Has throwing a tube onto a device actually serve a purpose or has tubes become a marketing gimmick of late?
     
    Razakoz and patient_ot like this.
  2. CatManDude

    CatManDude Forum Existent

    Location:
    Connecticut, USA
    You pose a lot of good questions here @DaleClark. I have a McIntosh MC240. I tried using a Schiit Saga tube pre with it but didn't think it sounded any better than the Rotel solid state pre I was using at the time. I ultimately went with a solid state McIntosh C28 which sounds fantastic paired with the MC240 and my Klipsch Heresy IV's. I'm now debating trying a tube pre again. If I do, I'll likely go with a vintage tub pre like the McIntosh MX 110. I do agree that a lot of the tube equipment out there today (especially the lower priced stuff) is more gimmicky than the tube equipment of yore when tube amps were designed primarily around the tubes because there was no alternative.
     
    fortherecord likes this.
  3. Dr. J.

    Dr. J. Music is in my soul

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    I can't answer your questions, but true tube sound is much more than introducing pleasing harmonic distortion, which you call "noise," into the signal path. When I was using a low powered SET amplifier, I would first describe the sound as holographic, big, and lush (but clear) in the midrange.
     
  4. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    People can use or prefer whatever gear they want. You've got tube people and solid state people and some folks that run a mix of both types of gear.

    Personally I like solid state and have no personal use for tubes in a stereo system. I don't think "good" tube gear or classic type gear is necessarily a gimmick though. It just is what it is and people that are into that stuff know what they are getting into when they buy it.

    Some of the "tube/ss hybrid" gear on the market looks pretty gimmicky to me though. All that off brand eBay/Ali Express type stuff is even worse since it's likely full of counterfeit parts and definitely has no real safety certification. Wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
    snorker, mikeyt, Razakoz and 3 others like this.
  5. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    you are asking a lot of good questions. the best thing for you is to get out and listen, especially to good tube amplification. listen to a rogue audio cronus magnum iii head to head with a rega elicit R or parasound hint for example and tell us if it is a gimmick.
     
  6. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    That gimmick is 30 years old at this point. Both in hifi and guitar equipment, throwing tubes in the mix -- often highly visible in a little window -- maybe as a buffer at the end of an otherwise solid state circuit, to generate a little "tube warmth" in the form of even order distortion, and offer a marketing point, Doesn't mean that's the only way tubes are used and marketed, but it's been pretty common now for decades.
     
  7. Rich-n-Roll

    Rich-n-Roll Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington State
    There is no magic involved with "Tubes" it adds a secondary harmonic distortion which is sympathetic to the original signal which we perceive or is known as the "warm tube sound" I use a tube based preamp and it makes the soundstage more open, more space between the instruments and vocals I don't think I will go back to to a SS preamp
     
  8. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    I’ve done such comparisons (with a CMII) and there are definitely pros and cons. Regardless of tube rolling, the CM consistently had the most “grainy” sound and was the noisiest by a wide margin. The CMII also failed to match the SS amps in lowest octave extension.

    The “holographic” atmosphere of the CMII is certainly lacking in many SS amps, but not in the case of amps like the MOSFET-based Yamahas. In that comparison, the A-S1100 didn’t leave give up much ground in favor of the CM.

    There is this notion that good tube amps offer greater transparency over SS, but I contend that’s an impression formed from the non-linear response that results from most speaker pairings, in which the midrange is moved forward in the mix. That and the distortion harmonics that result in a sort of reverb effect. Good SS mostly closes that gap and reveals there is something to be said for an ultra-low noise floor.
     
    Icethorn likes this.
  9. bjlefebvre and DaleClark like this.
  10. DaleClark

    DaleClark Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    I’m more talking about newer “ tube thrown in” equipment. Of course, equipment designed AROUND a tube ( think McIntosh, AR, Decware, etc are not gimmicks.

    however, I do feel some manufacturers get in bc a marketing huddle:

    “ great product, throw a 50 cent tube in and we will reach an even wider audience and can charge another $100).

    .
     
  11. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Understood, sometimes analyzing the process helps reinforce what we hear- good and bad- on both sides of the line.
    When I heard a startling back to back between a stock Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II and a Rega Elicit R it was obvious to all in the room that the CM II sounded superior - open and clean, highly refined and sounded like music. The Rega sounded thick and less like music, more like a good hifi.
    Hearing the affordable Audio Note Cobra tube integrated amp at AXPONA, an 8wpc SET, I was stunned by the sound coming out of the 94db AN-E Hemp speakers.
    The best sounding rooms all featured tube amplifiers- Border Patrol, LTA, Triangle Art, VAC, etc.
    Noise, distortion, harmonics, non-linearities, reverb, etc. they sounded better to my ears by far. We all hear differently and I respect those that do.
     
  12. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    gimmicks do abound in such settings but there are good tube products like a line magnetic CD player or pro-ject tube box phono preamp where tubes do contribute to refinement and sound stage depth.
     
    Snargfarg likes this.
  13. Joy-of-radio

    Joy-of-radio Forum Resident

    Location:
    Central ME
    I've heard many tube amplifiers throughout my life and some cam sound quite decent! But, with modern technology being what it is, transistorized amplification can equal or surpass it easily. High-fidelity audio via transistorized amplification is much easier to achieve these days and very inexpensively too. Frankly, it's more reliable and stable as well. The main goal for audiophiles should be to achieve the highest degree of audio fidelity; That is to say systems that most faithfully and accurately reproduce audio. For most people who understand this simple concept, the fascination and, dare I say, frustration then comes mostly from finding well mastered audio to enjoy on their systems. That in itself is challenging!

    I understand the allure of tube amplification for many folks. It's fun, nostalgic, and kinda cool watching the valves' amber glow! They appeal to tinkerers as well as they experiment by rolling (swapping out) tubes to alter the sound.

    When transistor technology was in its infancy, tube amplification sounded far superior! Interestingly, in the late '50s, the General Electric (GE) company tasked its designers with developing and producing a portable ALL-TRANSISTOR radio that rivaled the performance of the best tabletop tube sets of the day. GE succeeded with its model P-780 released in 1958. I've heard one of these electronically restored sets, and they really move some air and they really sound very good!
    [​IMG]

    My opinion is that most tube amps made these days are indeed gimmicky and not worth the effort and expense.
     
    ubiknik, BZ58 and Razakoz like this.
  14. PhotoMax

    PhotoMax Forum Resident

    Location:
    Orcas Island
    Not easy to come up with a one blanket definitive statement here.

    But I get what the OP is asking for sure. It just seems like there is a lot of new kit designed around showing off glowing tubes while charging a premium for it. Much of the established tube kit had the tubes hidden in regular rectangular shaped boxes.

    The reality is the component case often represents 25% or more of the total purchase cost. Hi Fi audio components have to look “cool/hot” and they are important display art sculptures for many buyers…
     
    Joy-of-radio and timind like this.
  15. james

    james Summon The Queen

    Location:
    Annapolis
    I don’t know much about audio gear design, but isn’t it true get tubes are electrically better at some things than transistors?
     
    jonwoody likes this.
  16. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    After many years of experimentation I’ve found “my sound” in tube preampfification combined wth SS power amplification. I hear very substantial differences and all to the better.
     
  17. fish

    fish Senior Member

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    Depends on the circuit.

    All too many companies put tubes in as an input buffer stage and it don't improve things, just adds tube distortions which are perceived as "warm and fuzzy" in your belly.

    A serious output stage circuit can be magical. Especially one thats tube rectified.

    But you can also achieve the same magic with Solid State. Its about implementation - and cost. Simple tube circuits are usually much cheaper to produce.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
  18. Oddiofyl

    Oddiofyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston
    I agree , the cheap gear coming from China is definitely using vacuum tubes as a gimmicky selling point. I wouldn't spend a dime of my money on that stuff...

    Really great tube gear should be quiet.... and sound great . I have spent 6 months with a Zesto preamp. There is nothing about it's sound that would make you even think about what topology it is , or even be able to guess....it is dead quiet and completely natural sounding. It's purchase was completely on impulse due to it's rear panel amenities but was definitely a good one.

    Unfortunately a lot of really good NOS tubes have been wasted on cheap tube buffer headphone amps and integrated amps. I read somewhere that a lot of these devices only put about 12 v on the plates, so how can it sound good? It can't, the tube isn't even operating in the correct range.
     
  19. DaleClark

    DaleClark Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Before I downsized to an integrated, I was seriously looking at the Zesto preamp. The unit just ooozes quality from the looks of it.
     
    Oddiofyl likes this.
  20. mkane

    mkane Strictly Analog

    Location:
    Auburn CA
    timind likes this.
  21. tIANcI

    tIANcI Wondering when the hifi madness will end

    Location:
    Malaysia
    For me the ‘tube sound’ is a Cary Audio SLP-05 with NOS tubes. :D
     
    jonwoody likes this.
  22. Oddiofyl

    Oddiofyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston
    It is a great piece. It annihilated the CJ Classic it replaced and that was pretty decent Better than how it sounds or looks is the support you get from George and Carolyn should you ever need it . Great people to deal with.
     
  23. Oddiofyl

    Oddiofyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston
    I am awaiting delivery soon of a Toolshed 300b to pair with the Zesto. Then I am hopefully done for a while
     
  24. Archimago

    Archimago Forum Resident

    I wouldn't say it's a "gimmick" although I'm sure some companies will just stick a tube on a box and expect sales since that's an advertisable feature.

    Clearly there are good tube designs and bad one. If you want to see what tube does to some gear, here's an example on my blog of the Oppo BDP-105 that went through a tube mod:
    MUSINGS: Thoughts on audio device "modding" (eg. a tube modded Oppo BDP-105).

    Measurements of 2 devices, one unmodded, the other went through a mod that costs I think more than the Oppo itself. Notice what happened:
    1. Frequency response changed, in this case very deep bass got attenuated (rolling off below 200Hz). Perhaps for some this will create an increase in relative midrange and highs.
    2. Overall noise level increased. More 60Hz hum noticeable. 24-bit performance of the BDP-105 eradicated to worse-than-16-bit noise level.
    3. Increase in harmonic distortion (see the 24/192 IMD graph) where harmonics of 60Hz exacerbated but interestingly it's in a predictable descending pattern so we don't see something like a 6th harmonic sticking up over a 3rd.
    4. (3) basically implies lots of nonlinearities seen across THD and IMD measurements. THD of the native BDP-105 at 0.0004% bumped up to 0.3% with the tube mod.

    I remembered listening to this modded device through his floorstanders which were not large enough to provide deep bass nor a sub (so the low frequency roll-off wasn't too noticeable). My friend liked it and I guess it was alright for mostly jazz and small classical quartets. Definitely not meant for deep hard rock or pulsating electronica bass. Midrange was nice and this seemed like a good example of when the tube mod accentuates the subjective harmonic complexity of solo instruments like Coltrane's sax or Perlman's violin; "smoother", more "real"? Maybe.

    Anyhow, as a guy who likes clean "high fidelity", the measurement results (and change in sound) was rather unfortunately to put it lightly. Back in 2013 when this mod was done, I didn't see many measurements nor did consumers seem to care to ask for objective results for something like this before plunking down thousands of dollars with all kings of subjective kudos. I hope the culture has changed over time!

    If I want tubes, I'm OK with them in a tube amp like this relatively inexpensive old Melody Onix SP3 tested. More high frequency roll-off there which decreases harshness with some music (especially excessively bright older CDs). Higher noise level and lower order 2nd and 3rd harmonics typical.

    As such, I don't think there's a standard "tube sound" since frequency response can fluctuate and that's probably the most important audible difference with most gear, just be aware that noise is higher and more nonlinearities with tubes. These can make them sound "better" to some.
     
    Joy-of-radio and The Pinhead like this.
  25. Snargfarg

    Snargfarg Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hernando, MS
    Sure, there is plenty of gimmicky tube gear. There is a lot of gimmicky SS gear also. I've had a few of both over the years with mixed results. I bought Yaqin SD-CD3 buffer once and wasn't too impressed with it. My current gear is a Vincent pho-701 phono pre-amp and a Vincent SV 237mk integrated. Both are "hybrid" designs. Both pieces have a window with an orange led light that shines on the tube. Is that gimmicky? Yeah but it also works as advertised. Both pieces achieve a sound that would be hard to replicate with transistors. While some may not like the idea of hybrid designs, I do and don't consider them as gimmicks.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine