Have Tubes become "Gimmicky"? What is the TUBE sound?

Strawman arguments are valid. That's what ASR specializes in. The strawman that measurements, and especially SINAD, are the most important factor.

A valid critique of the blind test is that if the CJ does invert polarity you need to explore how much inverted polarity is actually audible. It is possible that the significant differences you heard between the Benchmark and the CJ are just due to inverted polarity. (not likely, and I don't believe that is the case, but something that does need to be explored)

Inverting absolute polarity does change the sense of imaging and layering and the sense of the strength of the bass.

My headphone system allows me to hear when absolute polarity is flipped. It is audible with music. It's actually easier to hear when absolute polarity is flipped using a good speaker system than it is with headphones. So you with speakers that are properly set up should be able to hear it more easily than I do. It's more audible in the bass. Less so in the midrange. Much less in the treble. All due to bass having longer waves where the timing difference of the wave peaks and troughs is more evident due to the longer waves. So listen more to bass and midrange than treble when listening for how absolute polarity can affect the sound and imaging and layering.

You can use a computer based media player to flip absolute polarity. JRiver has a parametric EQ that has an option to flip polarity of the L and R channels. There are also VST plugins that will do that. And other media players can also flip absolute polarity.

Incidentally, my hybrid headphone amp makes it easier to hear when absolute polarity is flipped than my solid state amp. Tubes be good.

 

Well it all depends - it doesn't always come down to price or name brand gear but CJ is generally regarded as on the warm side of the tube amp spectrum - a little overly warm to some and SS is SS which is why most people don't pass properly conducted tests with SS amps. In general, I like tube amplifiers more (SET more so) than SS - but there are some very good SS and class D amps that I've enjoyed. I own SS, Class D, class-A PP tubes, SET, Single Ended Pentode (SEP), and SS DAC and tube DACs and auditioned a lot of various designs over the years. And I can say that I have liked a lot of the different approaches.

I think people overthink things - possibly because most people can only afford or have the space for ONE amplifier - so it kind of matters more - with one amp or one set of speakers you have to live with that sound. You can switch from CJ to SS as your mood changed or you want to hear a different take on the sound. One gives you more attack and a bigger stage but the other has more body and tone so maybe you want the latter on Eva Cassidy but the former with Guns N Roses.

I do find it interesting that many of the Hong Kong Audiophiles seem to have a lot more gear to change in and out while living in small rooms while in the west people have huge rooms and seem to feel stuck with one amp.

 

I went from a high end Audio Note UK tube system to a Naim SS system last year. The AN was sadly very unreliable with a total of seven faults over a two year period so I moved it on. The sound was smooth, clean and textured (vocals could sound incredible tangible) but it was slow compared to my current set up due to inferior speed of response to transients manifested most negatively in the bass and it also had a compressed soundstage. On Leonard Cohen’s final album for example with it’s superb open, clean but simplistic compositions the AN sounded excellent. Jeff Beck on the other hand sounded compressed and uninspiring. Tube fan boys will suggest that the tube sound is clearly superior to SS, but having owed both types of systems at the high end I would say tube systems are, at best, a labour of love with a certain excellence that will appeal to some listeners more than others.

 

That may be true. You’ve spent a lot more time over there than I have. I usually just read the initial review.

but what you’re describing isn’t the impression I get from the reviews. For example:

“sure hope their higher priced stuff is better because my experience so far indicates anything but that. Please don't buy this DAC.”

Budget DAC Review: Schiit Modi 2 ($99)

You’re talking about understanding why one would “hear a difference”, which is interesting, but Amir doesn’t even talk about hearing the unit.

 

My headphone setup is four different amps. All plugged in and ready to play and switch between. That keeps the headphone listening fun. Always a change if and when I want it. I'd rather have these four amps than one amp that costs four times as much. Along with having several different headphones to mix and match with the amps.

Admittedly, it is easier to have multiple headphone amps and multiple headphones all set up and ready to switch between than it is doing the same with speakers. That's one reason why headphones be awesome and more fun than speakers.

My four main headphone amps are three hybrids and one solid state. All using MOSFETs. I do plan on adding a full tube amp to the system as a fifth amp. Just haven't done that yet.

 

In the world of guitar amplification, non tube, solid state, or digital amps both sound and - more importantly - feel like someone has run a postcard of a tube amp through a photocopier, and all you're left with is a hollow recreation based on an idea of a sound that is, perhaps, 10% of what it's like actually playing through a dynamic, rich, and articulate tube amp - be it EL34s, 6L6s, EL84s, etc.

 

With all music styles? In my experience for a Tube amp to play Rock and Dance music as well as an SS amp it would have to cost at least 4 times that of the SS amp.Although i accept thet tubes excel in certain areas that an SS amp would find hard to replicate

 

Yes, but only with the right speaker match. Low power and sensitive speakers is what I prefer. Preamp ? I would put that Zesto up against any SS pre , it is that good. At the moment I am using Quicksilver Mid Monos. Amazing amps at their price, I didn't realize how good they were until I put a really good pre in front of them.

 

Thanks to the OP for such an amusing thread. Lots of fun.

 

I said, "most tube amps made these days are indeed gimmicky". I've heard many and they can produce satisfying audio albeit colored to various extents. The folks I know who use them, frequently roll tubes to achieve various outcomes. Those same people also frequently swap out speakers, cables, and other components. They seem to be inconsistent and unsettled regarding their systems. It's a form of tinkering and experimentation that they seem to enjoy very much! For me personally, I want to simply enjoy my music. Dealing with the many differences that present themselves in variations of masterings alone is enough for me. I'm not knocking tube amplification, but there is a huge market for cheap tube amplifiers that, in my view, is quite gimmicky!

 

You forgot other applications where they're necessary. Like broadcast and recording studio mixing consoles. And rarely will you find true VU meters anyway on consumer grade audio equipment. They're more like peak reading level indicators.

 

tubes do not significantly alter the frequency response or balance, a widely held misconception. Especially compared to equilization that can greatly shift frequencies and ruin the sound if used abandonly.

 

l also have the 237 and it is indeed a very tubey sound- but also treads the SS path with bags of power and of course tone controls.

 

ASR is an awesome valuable site.
I just feel for the people who use measurements alone to dictate and validate what they hear and buy as if they are the holy grail.
There are too many significant variables in audio to rely on measurements alone.

 

Over the years I had owned four different tube amps, including a nice Prima Luna. With these amps I kept wondering if there was something wrong with my hearing as I couldn't hear anything special. They were all modern tube amps. It wasn't until I purchased a Fisher KX-90 amp, built around 1965, that I finally heard what all the fuss was about. I finally heard the "tube sound" I was expecting.

So are new tube amps gimmicky? I can see how someone could come to that opinion.

 

First time I fired up a Fisher 500C It was love at first listen. It's gone but my Harman Kardon A500 brought on the same feeling.

 

Yes.

 

Yeah I agree, some people seem to think that measurements tell the entire story.

If only that were true.

 

I think a lot of "bargain hunters" use it to justify what they buy or have already bought.

 

What the heck ever happened to “trust yourself” and that also includes who you take advice from.

 

I feel like there is a very simple answer to this thread.

Yes, it's become gimmicky. These cheap little amazon/ebay ChiFi "tube" amplifiers are marketed and sold so that the buyer thinks they're getting this super niche, hip and cool glowy music amplifier thingy. It does not give that liquid midrange. It doesn't give that holographic sound stage. No added body to the midrange, vocals aren't more emotional... etc. You just get cool glowy bulbs.

However once you hit a certain price point and you're dealing with reputable companies you really get all of what's missing with those gimmicky tube amplifiers... at least that's what I've found.

 

Maybe this thread is a gimmick. The world may never know…

 

A lot of that cheap Chinese stuff with buffer tubes is gimmicky, likewise most cheap tube amps are a bit gimmicky as they don't have good enough output transformers to really shine. However if you get into quality tube gear there is something special about it.

 

Most of these companies offer SS amps that are just as cheesy as the tube versions. This kind of stuff has always been around. 100wpc and smaller than my clock radio! Imagine that.

 

I think the Crown XLS 1002 DriveCore2 Class -D power amp sounds sort of tube-like. I have a tube pre-amp and Jolida JD9 connected to it though.
Anyway they are inexpensive and seemed to have disappeared. On youtube people describe the sound as "dry" but that could be another word for tube-like lol.

I think if one ever gets a chance to listen to a nice Fisher 400 that would be a a good example of tube sound. Sort of a very rich mid-range.

Well it looks like Sweetwater has them on Ebay but they are asking for $549...that is $200 above list price from last year.