Help a vintage 2-channel owner create centralized digital audio library

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by hacksaw99, Sep 12, 2020.

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  1. hacksaw99

    hacksaw99 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Arizona
    I'll start with a short version of the end result I'm looking for, but it will probably be necessary to later add background on the limitations I'm working with, and why I have these requirements.

    I'm looking for a digital music storage/access + DAC solution that:

    1) uses a handheld remote control and HDMI-connected TV screen as the user interface for selecting songs and setting playlists (i.e. NOT smartphone based), and

    2) where music files (mostly hi-res wav files) are all locally stored e.g. on direct-connected SATA HDD, not transported by home network, and

    3) has the option to later include playback of internet-streamed music service via WiFi router but not needed initially.

    My current preamp is ~30 years old and only has RCA inputs, so I'm willing to also consider a new preamp (still 2-channel) to connect this to, but want to keep my old amp/speaker combo. Other components I want to continue using are turntable, TASCAM DVRA1000HD audio recorder/player, OPPO BDP-83 BR/SACD/DVD player, so a new preamp would need to accommodate those plus a spare AUX input. Part of my problem is neither the Tascam nor the OPPO are very flexible or user-friendly with accepting external digital audio inputs as wav files, and the Tascam lacks the TV display of play lists anyway.

    Any devices you can recommend I consider would be appreciated. Haven't had much luck in my searches so far.
     
  2. jtiner

    jtiner Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maine
    Have you already experimented with a USB hard drive connected to the Oppo? I'm not familiar with that model, only the 103 which is what I have. Navigating files is a bit clunky with the Oppo, but I made sure that I used consistent file/folder names and organization to make navigation easier. The plus side is that the Oppo handles just about every format including high-res and multi-channel. The majority of my files are .wav and flac.
     
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  3. hacksaw99

    hacksaw99 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Arizona
    Yes, I tried it with the wav files, then found a BDP-83 FAQ later that confirms it doesn't support wav files. Support for wav must have been added with later models. Shame OPPO has essentially gone out of business, as they'd probably have something close to what I'm seeking, and they had fantastic customer service.
     
    jtiner likes this.
  4. SKBubba

    SKBubba Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tennessee
    PC and roon.
     
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  5. draden1

    draden1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Des Moines, IA
    Wow, the Oppo 83 doesn’t support wav? Finding a Blu-ray player that can accept external hard drives seems the easiest (and cheapest) route, since you want an hdmi connection.
     
  6. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Your requirement of HDMI is going to rule out pretty much all of the good and accessible network players like the Cambridge Audio CXN, Bluesound Node 2i, etc.

    If you want a TV involved, your best bet is a small laptop and JRiver. Otherwise, consider one of the models I have mentioned above and use a tablet as your remote - no phone necessary.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
    Tim 2 likes this.
  7. jtiner

    jtiner Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maine
    I asked about the Oppo because it sounds like the path of least resistance based on your preferences. The inexpensive media players I've seen are all geared toward playback via network and would probably have a so-so analog output if any. If you decided to spring for a newer, used Oppo, I know the BDP-105 was supposed to have a better analog audio output section than the 103. you could use a small 2.5" drive enclosure permanently plugged into the USB port. That's what I used to do. Also, if you decide to use networking at all, you can point the Oppo at a PC or network drive for direct file playback if you don't want to bother with local streaming (but the Oppo will do that too).

    EDIT: Zoinks! I just looked for used 103/105 units and people want big bucks. Perhaps there's a less expensive HR wav/flac capable BD player readily available. My older Panasonic supports wav and flac, but only up to 48 kHz and 192 kHz respectively.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  8. hacksaw99

    hacksaw99 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Arizona
    That's a bummer re: HDMI. Seems like a good number of people would have a TV in between their speakers.

    The reason I don't want to use a smartphone to control the music is the fonts are too small for my old eyes, and the tiny keypads just too cumbersome. But the tablet suggestion might be workable with an 8-10" tablet, though I suppose there are a range of good and poorly implemented apps I'd have to sort through.

    For the sake of getting further info on this tablet rather than remote control + TV-based user interface, let me change #1 in my requirements to allow for a tablet instead.
    But the storage/player box would still be sitting on my entertainment center that is located between the speakers, and I still want a direct hard drive connection even if also equipped to be served files from a networked device.

    I know little about tablets so any specific suggestions welcomed, especially if known to pair well with a particular digital audio player device.

    I found this article Network Media Players which seems to have kept a running tally of "network audio devices" since 2011 and seems to be pretty thorough including many brands I've never heard of.
     
  9. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Either of the units I mentioned are top performers and well regarded here. Both allow for attached music storage (I have one attached to my CXN) and both can stream from most any of the popular sources. Each have their own app - both work fine, but I like the app for JRiver better...but it requires a PC of some kind to run. If you like seeing artwork displayed on your unit, the Cambridge is a good choice. If you don't mind a "box" just sitting there, the Node 2i will serve you well.
     
  10. hacksaw99

    hacksaw99 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Arizona
    As much as I've liked my OPPO BDP-83, I think I might be better off trying to sell it while there's still some interest in them and service is still available. Either that or I should proactively send it in for cleaning/checkup since it does sometimes make mechanical squeaking noises when loading blue-rays, and does sometimes fail to read disks but always reads them on a 2nd try if I eject and reload.
     
    jtiner likes this.
  11. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Space-Age luddite

    Location:
    Central PA
    hacksaw99, my first impression is, you're not telling us the whole story.

    1) What are "hi-res WAV files"? A WAV file is essentially the exact copy of whatever you had on a CD (known by most not as "WAV" files, but ".cda" files: essentially same thing). What makes these "hi res" WAV files?
    2) Do you already have the "hi-res WAV" files? Is your entire library going to be these? Why? Have you considered other options?
    3) By "other options", I'm suggesting FLAC, the open-source, compressed file format that also offers a much better tagging experience, usable by just about all players out there (aside from standard CD players, of course).
    4) Are you aware that a) FLACs will play a practically-exact performance of anything you already have on WAV, plus offer the tagging flexibility you need...plus, it is quite simple to convert your WAVs into FLAC copies, for easier manageability.

    Outside looking in, without further information from you, I'd advise you to WORK BACKWARDS from your strategy.

    1) You can begin converting your un-ripped CD sources immediately, as FLAC, before you even begin to choose and purchase other equipment. Once you begin to see the storage size and tagging flexibility, you will probably wonder why you shouldn't go exclusively into this format instead.
    2) You can begin just by reserving your current hard drive space with a FLAC subdirectory; plan eventually to put both current files, and your new FLACs, into the same library (and I promise, should you decide to convert the WAVs at that point, it will be as painless as ripping a CD to FLAC, only you would be "ripping" your WAV files instead).
    3) None of this strategy will have any effect on your equipment and purchase choices. It's just something you could get started on now - today! - while sorting out the tech stuff.
    4) You can use the freeware program EAC to rip, or pony-up a well-worth-it ($35) dBPoweramp program, which is slightly easier to configure for your task.

    Believe me, I've gone through the, "I have needs so specific that everybody elses' simpler strategies won't work for me, I need to make it harder on myself" route, in several projects. In the end, I've always made it harder on myself primarily because I wasn't listening to people who never put up these roadblocks to their own plans that I tend to.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
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  12. hacksaw99

    hacksaw99 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Arizona
    Yes, I did say in my first post I wasn't providing all the details and would add them as they come up. So to answer your question, the wav files are generated by my Tascam DVRA1000HD and I have a lot of them (mainly of digitized vinyl). It can generate, and I have generated all of: 44.1/24, 48/24, 88.2/24, 96/24, 176.4/24, 192/24 wav files, and DSD files (I have mainly settled on 88.2/24 wav files as my archival format for vinyl after experimenting for a while, so most of these files are that size). But I still have a fair number of LP's yet to digitize and planned to do them at 88.2/24. Also have lots of MP3 files since most of my CD collection was ripped to MP3 as the common format for use that's compatible across cars, but I will probably re-rip the CD collection to the native 44.1/16 for home listening and archival purposes. I was not aware of #4, especially the simple conversion, so thanks for that.
     
    jtiner likes this.
  13. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Space-Age luddite

    Location:
    Central PA
    Yeah, an expensive solution such as roon or JRiver will do that automatically (convert WAV to FLAC or to Mp3 or whatever), but a less-expensive solution such as the free EAC or dBPoweramp will do just as well.

    I understand your decision to rip LP's to a higher-caliber format was probably from reading about your options before you even tried to see if a more universal format was even acceptable - which you tend to find, in most cases, it is!

    Please - consider cutting your losses (in time and incompatibility) by focusing on a more universal format such as (actually, specifically) FLAC, and it will make your equipment choices a lot easier as well. This is not intended to be one of those "analog-vs-digital" arguments that can go on forever.

    The sooner you start, the sooner you will begin to understand, you may have put too much thought into a less-ergonomic solution, without really starting with experience before settling on a more complicated system.

    It makes no sense to choose the naugahyde seat covers, deluxe phone caddy and custom key fob, before you at least try the Yugo, and see if it still takes you across town just as easily.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
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  14. hacksaw99

    hacksaw99 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Arizona
    Thanks for the dBPoweramp reference. I had not heard of it before and looks good and priced reasonably as you noted. "PerfectTunes" seems useful too. As far as the decision to use wav, it was mainly made for me by Tascam (once I decided that digitizing DSD is not worth the extra storage space and proprietary hassles for me)
     
  15. Boulder Bob

    Boulder Bob Senior Member

    Location:
    Boulder, CO
    what does Foobar2000 look like on a tablet? the Foobar remote could be what the OP is looking for....
     
  16. hacksaw99

    hacksaw99 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Arizona
    Thanks. I'll see if i can find some youtube vids of the user interfaces in action. I presume album art and various fun facts about the artist are included in the 'now playing' song?

    Separate but related, I know nothing about the Lumin brand but their app seems to get high praise: LUMIN App
    Any comments on their products?
     
  17. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Album art yes, if it is included in the folder containing the music. As far as info regarding albums, songs, etc. that is more a function of the streaming service - not something that is going to happen with music on an attached hard drive with the Node 2i or CNX. One thing to note, the Bluesound app won't display artwork above a certain size (at least that used to be the case). I don't believe Cambridge Audio products have that limitation.

    If you really want a lot of cool data about the music you are playing...Roon is something to look at.
     
  18. hacksaw99

    hacksaw99 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Arizona
    I looked at the Roon website after someone posted about it earlier. Not sure I understand the configuration and what connects to what but it seems it needs a PC attached to the file drive(s) and the PC has to be on at all times you'd be listening to music, which would be a limitation I couldn't work with.
     
  19. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    If you just want an audio device to act as a host for your attached music and possibly streaming in the future from a music service...the Node 2i or CNX should be on your short list.
     
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  20. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
  21. hacksaw99

    hacksaw99 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Arizona
    Dillydipper, thanks again for the dBPoweramp rec. I ripped a few CD's just using the defaults, and seems pretty quick (2m21s to rip a 16 track, 1h18m run-time CD on a fairly new but average i5 PC.

    For the Tascam-generated wav files that are digitized LP sides @88.2/24 and roughly 700MB each, again using the defaults, it took dBP about 14 seconds to convert one side to FLAC. How does one go about associating album art to a file like this with no metadata and where the file is an entire LP side? Does this same company have a different software package for doing that?

    Here's an obscure example: I got a bunch of limited-pressing M&K direct-to-disc LPs when I bought some M&K speakers/subwoofer in the early 1980, like this one: Bill Berry And His Ellington Allstars - For Duke
    Is my finding that link of the correct pressing version something I can input somewhere to associate with the newly-created FLAC files of each side of the album, and it will automatically populate the metadata with everything discogs has on that version, if I give it that link?
     
  22. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Space-Age luddite

    Location:
    Central PA
    Obviously there will be situations where you'll have to manually-enter info. But to start with, you can set dPPoweramp, and EAC, for accessing various databases (the newer version of dBP, just out this year, is better at it now; you should be aware, freedb is now at a new location, having just been hosted by a new player to keep it alive). You can also set it to access other 'bases such as Discogs, but you need to read-up on it. Spoon is the guy who does the tech support on dBP, and has lots of resources.

    When I was running my online station, since I was already hand-entering the metadata directly into my professional music-scheduler software that ran the show, I would also input tag data manually, the ol'-skool way: set your Windows Explorer to list "details", right-click on a file, select "Properties", then click on ID Tag in the popup...you're off to the races.

    But again, that's extreme cases. If your ripping program can't be easily set to do your dirty work for you, another great freeware program is MP3Tag, which also works just as intuitively on FLACs: you should keep it with your "suite" of everyday ripping tools. It's a great batch-correction tool as well; use it to tweak files individually or collectively.

    A consistent file strategy is what makes your database work best for you, in whatever file format you need your info! You need the paths to match, so you can call them all up the same way (because, as we all know, "shuffle" is where the fun is!).
     
  23. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Glad you liked dBpoweramp. I ripped my entire CD collection using it to FLAC. Stored on a NAS drive. Took a long time, done in batches of 10-20. One of the major benefits is that it compares the rip checksum (four hex digits) with all other rips of the same tracks. So you know if your rip is accurate or not. For the not ones, you can usually find a cause, such as a scratch on the disc.

    One of the weird things is that some CDs rip really quickly, and some much more slowly. No idea why.
     
  24. formbypc

    formbypc Forum Resident



    Congratulations. You are absolutely the first person in the world I have ever encountered who has this LP as well as me. There's no prize, but you do get a thumbs-up. :edthumbs:



    With a WAV file that consists of a whole LP side, my method is to load the raw WAV file into Audacity - a free audio editing program, and use the editing facilities to remove any clicks, pops, etc.

    Use the Label facility to create a label at the beginning of each track - you'll see the gaps between them easily on-screen - and give each label the track name, typing it in manually. Optionally, include Track Number as part of the label (as in "01 Take the A Train", "02 Mood Indigo"). Experience will tell you how many microseconds of silence to leave in front of the music for your preferences.

    With all labels done, use Export Multiple to convert and save individual FLAC files with these names to your chosen folder. Use the export dialog box to select 24-bit and FLAC type as you export.

    You can import a Side A WAV, then import Side B, string them together and file-split the whole LP in one go. You can change the running order with copy/paste; if there's too much silence between tracks, you can snip some out for cleaner running ... etc

    Then use mp3tag or another tag editor to associate cover art (which it does quicker if the art is in the same folder) with the audio files

    Ask more if you want more detail on the process.


    If you want to keep the FLACs as full side, just use mp3tag or similar to associate the art with the two files A and B, as opposed to the eight tracks or so.
     
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  25. SKBubba

    SKBubba Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tennessee
    All purpose built network players/streamers are computers with software running on them. The main difference is that network players offer no flexibility and cost 2x-10x more than a pc. What you get for that is simplicity, or the appearance thereof, and a single vendor to deal with for support, updates, etc.

    With a pc, you have flexibility to choose your software, your dac, your transport/playback protocol, and more. You can also update, upgrade or swap out various aspects of the setup as needed or desired. With a pc/software based solution it is possible to achieve a better result at a far lower cost. Some users find this too complicated, thus the market for network players/streamers.

    My preference is a pc based solution. That's just me. Others will have valid reasons for preferring a purpose built player/streamer.

    Anyway, based on my preference I would recommend the original poster take a look at a small form factor Windows PC from Lenovo or Dell. Then get an up to date dac. An inexpensive dac such as Topping or SMSL is likely all one needs, but as with anything you can go crazy to the point of diminishing/zero return.

    For software, I'd recommend JRiver, at least starting out. The UI is antiquated and awful, but it is inexpensive, super flexible and is capable of excellent playback sound quality. It does not integrate streaming services and never will, but every major service has an app that works to various degrees of usability. Spotify is best in this regard, because you can use a tablet as a remote for the pc app. They don't offer lossless streaming, though.

    If the original poster wants a richer, nicer looking and more stable solution that seamlessly integrates local library and lossless streaming from Tidal and/or Qobuz, roon is the way to go. It is more expensive, but does everything the original poster wants and more.

    These are just my opinions based on my experience.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
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