Help! dynaudio emit m20 too bright! Need amp recommendation

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Markymark83, Feb 23, 2021.

  1. MJRaudio

    MJRaudio Active Member

    I went through three sets of tower speakers trying to find the right ones based on reviews and other peoples impressions. The biggest obstacles were no one had my room or my ears. I eventually thought I was happy with B&W but they were struggling with higher volume so i bought new amp and preamp. They then sounded much too bright (but much clearer at volume). Back they went.

    I found a good dealer about 1.5 hours away, so arranged for demo with my exact amp/preamp combination i bought from them and it was revelatory. What was a more accurate speaker (e.g., flatter response) was not necessarily my preference. My big issue was tweeter construction (hard dome worst, soft better, and ribbon best for me). I also got to hear my speakers (MartinLogan 60XTi) on different amps and honestly detected no meaningful difference (to my ears) from amps 2-3x the cost or Class AB vs. my Class D. Bottom line, get out there and listen. Assuming you have decent amp to drive your preferred speakers, then to me it is about the speaker and your home environment.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
    Markymark83 and sotosound like this.
  2. SpeedMorris

    SpeedMorris Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa
    Perhaps the droid you're looking for is a set of Wharfedale Denton 85ths.
     
  3. fish

    fish Senior Member

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    Amp First!

    my buddy threw a cheap set of PSB speakers on his Very expensive main system (400w McIntosh) and the cheap speakers were crazy better than they had any right sounding. Put them back in the other system which has a Denon AV receiver. They went back to being horrible.

    Iva always noticed this too.
    If your foundation is strong then even a Radio Shack speaker in a 2' x 4' plywood board will sound good!
     
    Silverwolf likes this.
  4. fish

    fish Senior Member

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    I took a leap of faith in Marantz. Was one of the last brands I ever thought id buy.
    But I bought a $4000 Reference Integrated PM-KI model and from what I read id not bother with anything under the new Model 30.
    However Steve Gutenburg did this review recently. But he's a bit wacky.
     
    AKA-Chuck G likes this.
  5. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Just bear in mind that the next model up may also be 4 ohm speakers like what you have - check and make sure. Your amp is going to do best with 8 ohm or at least 6 ohm speakers. I would stay away from 4 ohm speakers if I were you. Again, impedance plots and frequency response measurements should help you create a short list based on the speakers you're interested in.
     
  6. luckybaer

    luckybaer Thinks The Devil actually beat Johnny

    Location:
    Missouri
    Evoke 10 and Evoke 20 are 6 ohm. I tried them with my 100 wpc Onkyo TX-8555 (2 ch. stereo integrated amp), and they sounded fine. They do sound better with my other amp, though, but it isn't like listening to crap w/a decent integrated.

    Evoke 10: US$1,599/pr
    • frequency response: 47-23,000 Hz (±3dB)
    • sensitivity: 84 dB
    • impedance: 6 ohms
    Evoke 20: US$2,199/pr
    • frequency response: 40-23,000 Hz (±3dB)
    • sensitivity: 86 dB
    • impedance: 6 ohms
     
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  7. Noel Patterson

    Noel Patterson Music Junkie

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I'd love to hear your thoughts on comparing the Emits to a higher up model, as that is my plan eventually too!
     
    Markymark83 likes this.
  8. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident

    I’m wondering whether it ought to be speakers and amp first, i.e. replace both.

    It depends upon which bit of existing kit, if either, is suitable when used in an audition.

    There’s not much value in auditioning speakers if the amp isn’t good enough to support those auditions. The same applies to the speakers. Why audition amps using a pair of speakers that you don’t like?
     
    AKA-Chuck G likes this.
  9. Markymark83

    Markymark83 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    What about the older dynaudio focus 140?
    Anybody know what these are like?
     
  10. Markymark83

    Markymark83 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I’m considering maybe some older dynaudio’s.
    Contour 1.1
    Focus 110
    Focus 140
    If not I might just save for the Evoke 10’s.
    I have no real world experience with any of the above but from looking online they all seem to be highly rated, I’m not sure what the contour or focus are worth on the used market?
     
  11. luckybaer

    luckybaer Thinks The Devil actually beat Johnny

    Location:
    Missouri
    You have the Emit 20, too, right? Or do you have the Emit 10?

    Regardless, do your speakers have treble glare or treble peaks you find irksome?
     
  12. chipcalzada

    chipcalzada Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Philippines
    I bought my Contour 2o's brand new and IME 200 hours minimum break-in was required and they just got better from there. In the beginning, the highs were slightly rough sounding and lower freqs sounded closed in and choked. Patience will be tested and required but whatever it is you're liking now from the Emits will just get better after putting hours on them. If you have the funds to go higher up the line and/or get better amplification then that'll be the ideal way to go.
     
    yodog likes this.
  13. Noel Patterson

    Noel Patterson Music Junkie

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I used to have M10, now M20. Short answer is no, unless the recording is bright, they don't hide it. Positioning is huge with them, away from walls at side and behind, and very little toe in. I also have a little room treatment to help. On most recordings they are really nice, on good recordings they sound incredible. On bright harsh recordings, they are almost unbearable. I would say you need to be extra careful with set up, partnering equipment and the environment they are in or they could easily come off a little harsh in the treble. Get the balance right though, they can give much more expensive speakers a run for the money.
     
    head_unit likes this.
  14. popol_vuh

    popol_vuh Guest

    That's always the wrong approach IMO. Two wrongs, trying to make the right. I find this a bad approach to "synergy".

    On another note - are you sure it's not your room that makes the soun bright?
     
    head_unit likes this.
  15. head_unit

    head_unit Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    Oh let me clarify. I definitely believe there are cases where manufacturers use "burn in" to get buyers to keep their stuff a while by which time their brains have gotten used to the new sound if there is one. Then as noted in your link the buyers don't return the product.

    When we get to speakers, regardless of the sales practice side, I do think there is something to "break in" because speakers are quite inaccurate and all sound different. It really does take some time for you to get used to them, that part is not "snake oil." I just don't believe that the physical changes amount to significant response differences-just because the compliance changes by 15% or whatever does not automatically change the response curve of the driver in the box very much (again unless the driver is oddly constructed to begin with). I've actually measured that during and after full power QC tests. It's possible the differences from day to day variations in humidity and barometric pressure and sunlight change the response perception just as much. So I believe "break in" is pretty much people's brains getting used to the sound, not a very radical idea.

    But as with cables or the X-files, those who want to believe in big physical changes will believe, and I've generally found to be wildly defensive against the idea that perhaps they are just getting used to the new speakers (or cables or whatevers) sound and nothing physically significant is going on. I really am not sure why folks get so defensive that something they hear might possibly be in the brain domain and not the physical domain. Why IS that?!?

    As for "Plopping a new Klipsch reference where you had Bose 901s will certainly give you an impression of "harsh", if you were used to the previous pillow-over-your-sound signature." all I can say is :laugh:
     
  16. AKA-Chuck G

    AKA-Chuck G Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington NC
    OK, we seemed to have completely confused the OP-or he has us confused. :sigh:

    It's not that hard. But I really don't understand the determination to stick with a brand (now looking at used Dyn's ) that you are not completely happy with. You should send the speakers back...period!

    Plus, i've asked what speakers you had prior with that amp. Trying to get more information out of you. You need to update your profile as well.

    Your current amp was not a good match for 4ohm speakers. That's why better amps were recommended.

    Giving what has unfolded, the original posters recommending you send the speakers back, was the best option.
     
    warp2600 likes this.
  17. chipcalzada

    chipcalzada Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Philippines
    OP, I forgot to mention that I wanted to send back my Contour 20's after the first couple of days however I remember falling for the sound of the demo unit (assumingly fully run-in) at the AD's showroom although it was running on obscenely costing $$$$$ amplification. When I took them home and played the first song, my reaction was: "there's something wrong here", and then after a few hours there would be glimpses of what I heard at the showroom. In the end, I knew what it was capable of so I dug in and waited it out. On a side note, I considered changing my tube amp as I thought it was holding the speakers back but after the initial teething issues it all worked out. I haven't changed my speakers and amp for around 4 years now which I know is short in human years, but it's long in hifi years. :D

    @head_unit I've bought and had some speakers that needed very little or next to no break-in (i.e. Elac, Wharfedale) which sounded good and ready to perform right out of the box. Dynaudio on the other hand made me question my life choices when I first plugged it in. The general consensus is that it's critical to run them in before they can show what they're made of. A minor irritation for what is otherwise an excellent loudspeaker coming from arguably one of the best speaker manufacturers in the world.

    From the Dynaudio website:

    Run them in

    When you buy a brand-new car, you’re given strict instructions to take it easy for the first few hundred kilometres. The engine needs to bed in, and the moving parts inside it need to loosen up a little from the factory. So you follow the rule-book and, gradually, the car starts to feel better. Even the seats begin to feel softer.

    And so it is with speakers. Like car engines, they’re mechanical – the voice-coil, spider and diaphragm are all moving parts, and they need to loosen up too. The most straightforward way to get this happening is simply to listen to music for around 30 hours at a higher volume than you’d normally listen at (you don’t have to do that all at once, but we totally understand why you might not be able to help yourself with our speakers). After that time your speakers will be operating how our designers want them to. If you want, you can do your own experiment – put them in another room, have a listen, close the door, then leave the music on for three days. When you come back they’ll sound different – sweeter, subtler, more musical – and you’ll notice it.

    Run in your speakers before you get serious with any of the other tips here, because then you know they’ll be performing as they should, and their sound won’t change drastically after you’ve put in all the work…
     
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  18. Robsonschoice

    Robsonschoice Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ipswich UK
    If you are dead set on sending them back, then my guess is that you won't ever be happy, here are a pair of speakers that might fit the bill for you and are not fussed about placement, not expensive but great sounding speakers...will match with the amp you have. Totem Dreamcatcher bookshelf speakers Cherry Wood | eBay
     
  19. Markymark83

    Markymark83 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I don’t recall you asking me about prior equipment, sorry if I missed that.
    Anyway before these I was using some pmc twenty 21’s, I liked them initially but after a few days I changed my mind for various reasons.
    The dynaudio emits are known to be brighter than others higher up, however they do sound great everywhere else so for these reasons I figured it is likely worth getting something a little higher up the dynaudio ladder.
    I thought maybe someone here might know if the focus line are any good as they will be a little cheaper to buy than the newer evoke line.
    I don’t want to argue with anyone here!
    If I have confused anyone then I do apologize
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  20. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    I think I've come to a conclusion on this speaker - the tweeter doesn't have enough crossover padding to reduce the high frequency output for the tastes of many.

    The identical crossover (and perhaps drivers) was also used in the Dynaudio DM 2/7.
    [​IMG]

    Evidence? From a review where we can see the elevated tweeter output above the 2.6kHz crossover frequency, (also in comparison to other speakers):
    [​IMG]

    Home reviewers that put the speaker to test didn't find as much deviation in the high frequencies, though.

    I modeled the crossover, fitting the unlabeled inductors to the indicated crossover frequency. The electrical output to tweeter is -6dB lower to match its higher sensitivity. We can see the padding's elevated tweeter impedance in the review above.

    [​IMG]
    The phase response at the 2.6kHz red cursor is also why some indicate one of the drivers are wired out-of-phase.

    - Conclusion below: One could reduce the tweeter output by replacing the crossover's 10W 3.9 Ohm resistor with a larger value. About 1dB additional reduction per Ohm.
    - Alternately: One could externally add an inductor inline. 50uH-100uH (0.1 mH) will increasingly cut the high air and shimmer, while emphasizing mid-treble around 3kHz.
    - Alternately 2: buy another speaker.

    [​IMG]

    Off-axis high frequency response is also reduced - spacing the stereo speakers further apart, and even canting them outwards a bit may take the edge off.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  21. Markymark83

    Markymark83 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I can see the emit20’s or dm 2/7 are a bit boosted, I’d say it sounds a little more severe than the graph suggests, really surprised that the wharfedale looks bright! I haven’t ever heard a bright wharfedale!
    Thanks for taking the time to explain all that! Even if I don’t quite understand it all


    I thought you might find this helpful if you’re thinking about purchasing these.
    I found this review below, not the m20’s but the m10’s.



    I totally disagree on the midrange and everything else said but he’s not too far off when describing the treble. They do NOT sound like budget speakers at all though!! The only issue I have is the brightness at points so yeah, I think this reviewer is much too extreme.

    Nobody here using the contour 1.1, focus 110 or 140?
     
  22. SMc

    SMc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin TX
    The measurements make a case for a target curve with a falling treble if they seem bright. My DM 2/7s in a large room with hard surfaces need to be near the back wall for bass reinforcement and a treble cut is welcome on some material. However, I don't hear the level of sibilance the OP complains about which makes me think something in his room is encouraging those spikes. I use an AVR (Integra DTR 2.7) so ideally I could run room correction and add a sub but I'm not pleased with the results yet. I blame correction above the bass frequencies.

    I like these speakers overall so I'd hope he finds a way to enjoy them, too.
     
  23. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident

    Stuck record time. Sorry! But....

    The idea of replacing amps and doing room correction stuff just because one specific loudspeaker, which is known to be a bit bright, sounds a bit too bright in a real room seems a bit topsy turvy to me.

    Wouldn’t it make more sense to try a different, more efficient and more neutral-sounding speaker, possibly from a different brand such as Q Acoustics, or Rega, or Audio Note or Wharfedale or Kef etc. to have something else to compare with. Such a speaker might sound better straight out of the box, and achieve the OP’s original goal without all of the additional faff.

    Also, even if the Emits are returned, there’s nothing to say that they can’t be purchased at a later date. :)
     
  24. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Wharfedale makes a lot of different speakers and they won't all sound alike. However, if you look at the graph closely there is a pronounced dip around ~15K. As people age, they're not going to be able to hear past that dip. They may not even be able to hear past 15K.

    I think Harby's illustration shows that these speakers could very well have elevated treble. Combine that with potentially problematic room acoustics which many people are dealing with and it's not going to be pleasant to listen to for everyone. If it were me I would have been discouraged from getting the speakers in the first place or putting them on my shortlist for audition.
     
  25. Markymark83

    Markymark83 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    My plan isn’t to upgrade an amp for these speakers anymore, I would have done so though if I hadn’t have posted here!
    I’m just going to get some higher end dynaudio’s and replace my amp for something more powerful.
    I hoped I could tame the issues but it’s pretty clear that replacing everything is the best way to go.

    We are all in lockdown over here so auditioning gear has been totally off the cards, I read a few reviews of the emit’s which seemed very positive plus I know they make some great studio monitors so I figured they’d be pretty darn good!
    It hasn’t worked out as well as I’d hoped obviously :/
     
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