Help me build my system to match my "new" B&W Nautilus 804's

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Bananas&blow, Oct 22, 2017.

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  1. Bananas&blow

    Bananas&blow It's just that demon life has got me in its sway Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pacific Beach, CA
    While I take my time deciding on the amp I want, I decided to address the weakest link in my chain currently and ordered a used Oppo 105 from Amazon. I'll report back in a week on any sonic differences detected. I can't imagine it won't make an improvement.
     
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  2. StimpyWan

    StimpyWan Forum Resident

    Well, since the Yamaha RX-A3030 has multi-channel inputs, you can run both analog and HDMI to the Yamaha. As such, you can compare the internal ESS Sabre DAC's on the 3030, directly to the Oppo's internal DAC's. See which is best?

    Also, one of the reasons that I bought my RX-A3030, is it's multitude of connections. It offers composite, component, HDMI and S-VHS video connections, multi-channel audio input connections, and HDMI. The 3040 dropped the legacy video inputs, and the 3050 dropped the multi-channel analog inputs. So, the 3030 was the last TOTL Yamaha A/V receiver, that would handle pretty much any connection.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
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  3. Bananas&blow

    Bananas&blow It's just that demon life has got me in its sway Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pacific Beach, CA
    It better F'n sound better.
     
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  4. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon, USA
    Well, a while back I compared my Emotiva DAC with Oppo 105 and did not feel Oppo was any better. I returned the loaner to the dealer. So, I suspect that you might not really hear a big difference if your Yamaha already has a good DAC. But you never know until you try in your own setup.
     
  5. StimpyWan

    StimpyWan Forum Resident

    ay, you can compare the
    You can PM me the results. Spare any public embarrassment for either brand. Or more importantly, me...! :righton:
     
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  6. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Your correct, it won't make any difference, since you are using your deck as a transport.

    I had been using a $39 Sony CD player as a transport and a $79 Samsung Blu-ray player, which went into the HDMI input on the Emotiva processor.

    A few years back, I was reading a post, I think was on an Emotiva forum, where an Emotiva engineer was answering that very question, about a cheap CD player that a poster owned.

    It was comparing the cheap CD, used strictly as a transport, comparing it to an Emotiva CD player, also used as a transport.

    The engineer, stated that the Emotiva would sound the same.

    I have a 93, which was purchased after the 103/105's came out. Since I only use it as a transport, I didn't see any reason to spend money on unnecessary features.

    I have the 93 going into a digital input of a Peachtree iNova which also uses an ESS Saber DAC.

    Since the 105 has the latest Saber DAC that was available at the time and is newer than the one in used in the iNova, it might be better than the DAC in your AV receiver.

    In that case, you will be better served, using the 105 to decode your CD's and DVD's/Blu-ray disks and going out the analog RCA out's.

    This way, you can utilize the 105 as your primary system DAC.

    You may also want to consider having a separate processor to decode your HT.

    The 105 will output SACD's through the analog out's and also through your HDMI.

    Going to separates, gives you an advantage to mix and match your components, to better tailor the sound to your individual preferences.

    This way, you can utilize a more audiophile amp for both your stereo and HT.

    You could also opt for using a tube amp for HT and your current AV receiver for HT.

    I use an A/B box to switch between two different sets of front towers.

    You can use that same switch box to connect two amps to a single pair of speakers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
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  7. Bananas&blow

    Bananas&blow It's just that demon life has got me in its sway Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pacific Beach, CA
    Terrific :(. Well it better F'n look better!
     
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  8. Bananas&blow

    Bananas&blow It's just that demon life has got me in its sway Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pacific Beach, CA
    Where would I locate said A/B box?
     
  9. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    Yeah, the Oppo stuff is incredibly useful, if you need all those features. But I wouldn't be getting it for the sound quality.
     
  10. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon, USA
    Yes, it will look and feel better than your current player. :)
     
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  11. SHU

    SHU Forum Resident

    Location:
    Netherlands
    I'm using a Krell KAV300i for my 804s.
    Nice feature of this Krell is the option of using input 3 as a HT input, bypassing the pre-amp. This can be done by changing jumpers on the PCB.

    CD and Turntable (via separate phono stage as the Krell's inputs are line level only) are connected directly to the Krell.

    My Yamaha HT receiver has pre-outs, so the front channels go to the Krell's input 3 in HT mode. No speakers connected to the 'front' terminals of the Yamaha.

    Logitech Harmony remote to control the lot.

    Works great. And sounds great too, I think.
     
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  12. RiCat

    RiCat Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I just bought a Oppo93 and am returning it to the seller. I had it running into my Gungnir DAC and it has random audio dropouts on every cd. Plays great then off goes the sound and then back it comes. Tried toslink, coax even analogue straight to the pre. No luck at all will have to look for a different unit.
     
  13. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I use a Russound AB-2.2, switch box. They are $79 at Crutchfield or you can order from Russound directly.

    I'm very pleased with this unit. It is a heavy steel box with a quality single push button switch.

    I believe that @Agitater first mentioned it in a post, some time back.

    Another feature that I like is that there are three, two pair connector's on the back. You first screw the wires into a plug strip and then you plug it in to the connector on the box.

    This is a real nice unit. I'm happy that I purchased this unit.

    BTW, I use 16-gauge RCA speaker wire from Amazon. About $20 for a hundred foot roll. That is what connects the amp to the A/B and from the switch to the speakers.

    I use this same speaker wire on all my amps and speakers, including the A7's.

    If you like, get the 14-gauge version, if you want to have a heavier gauge wire.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  14. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    I'm sorry, but these are NOT decent amp specs., certainly not for a B&W N8xx speaker! The rated output power is only specified for two channels driven, not all channels, and dynamic power figures are meaningless. The question is, "What continuous power can it deliver into different impedances?" The answer will be nothing like the figures above (not unless you let the distortion figure go way over 1%).

    The ability of the power supply to continue to deliver the necessary current into halving impedances. So, a good solid-state amp will be rated as 300 W into 8 ohms, 600 W into 4 ohms, 1,200 W into 2 ohms, and, if really good, 2,400 W into 1 ohm (for all the Apogee Scintilla owners out there!). [These figures are only given as a guide, not indicative of needing a minimum of 300 W into 8 ohms, etc. to be considered good. It is the doubling of power with halving impedance that indicates the capability of the amp to properly drive difficult loads.]

    Classe produced some very capable amplifiers (especially the CA-M, Omicron and Omega series), and, as has already been mentioned, had links to B&W, so they were often partnered together in public demos, and were used at places like Abbey Road which helped to feed their advertising campaign.

    IMO, the above is your best advice, in terms of power amplification. In a previous job I had multi-channel sets of N801, N802, N803 and N805 speakers, so I am familiar with the brand! I still own a set of N802s.

    Although not hugely expensive at the time, the Nautilus range was very revealing of everything that came before the speaker. To all those who are saying that your receiver is sufficient to drive them, etc., I can only assume that they have not heard the Nautilus models on the end of very high quality components playing high-resolution source material. If someone is happy with the sound, fair enough, but there is no way your receiver can extract the best from the speakers, especially if you investigate their limits. Apart from at home, my listening was all done either in recording studios or large demo rooms, and playback was done at realistic volume levels (especially when using the N801 and N802).

    While not being as tough a load as the N801 or N802, the N804 is still a 4 ohm speaker, with a 3 ohm minimum impedance. It is 4 ohms over much of the frequency range! For the bulk of my listening, I used Pass X-600 monoblocks, even on the tiny N805s! This was a nearly ideal combination. Only nearly because the Pass amps generate enormous amounts of heat (about 700 W (IDLE) per mono chassis, and I had five on the go!). For that reason, I bought Classe CA-M monoblocks for my home, as I do not have air-co, and the Classe amps have something similar to Krell's plateau-biasing, so adjust bias level as the demand changes. While the Classe amps are excellent, they miss that certain something of the Pass. Given your financial constraints (and possible need to address other issues -- see later), I would suggest looking for a used X-350 if you want to go the Pass route. Why so powerful an amp? Because the bigger the amp, the longer it stays in Class-A, and I think the X-350 could do about 80 W before going to AB. Of course, you would need to be able to cope with the heat dissipation.

    Alternatively, the Classe CA-M monos would work, as would some of the older Ayre stereo amps., which I also had a lot of success with (and are very low noise).

    Like some here, I've never been a fan of Krell, but there are many 800-series/Krell users. Similarly, there are many, many McIntosh/800-series users on this very forum. So, you should definitely check a suitably powerful Mac amp out. 50,000,000 SH Forum members can't be wrong, right? :)

    However, you may have more fundamental issues than just the power amp. You may need to make wholesale changes to your system to get the best from these speakers. Do you have the budget for that?

    I would not be so quick to dismiss changes when adding in an Oppo 105. While your receiver and the Oppo may both use ESS Sabre chips, that is no guarantee that they will sound remotely similar. Everything is down to implementation.

    I also notice that your room is not ideal. It is asymmetric to begin with, and has a wall of glass on one side, which will be highly reflective. I understand that your system doubles as a HT system, but I would cover the TV, etc. with some heavy blanket to try to kill the reflections from it, especially as you have the speakers pretty much in line with the rack.

    I was also never a fan of using the similar N803 directly on the floor, and would suggest considering the appropriate Sound Anchors stands to lift the speakers slightly:

    803-804 NSD | Sound Anchors: Specialty Audio Stands | High-End Home,Professional Studio, and Video | Custom Amplifier Stands, Component Stands, Video Stands, Studio Furniture

    Sound Anchors stuff is pricey, but excellent, unfortunately!

    Your room is also bare, so will be pretty reflective. This won't help you get the best from the speakers.

    So, I think you need to do some serious planning, especially if you do not have the funds to address all the issues in one go.

    Good luck!
     
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  15. Buque

    Buque Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bowie, Marlyand
    When I assembled my initial system I ordered the speakers and amplifiers at the same time. The speakers, Dynaudio Contour 3.4s, arrived first. Anxious to hear the speakers I hooked them up to my vintage Marantz 2252B receiver. I was stunned how well the speakers sounded with the decades old piece of equipment so don’t sell your 2245 short.

    Metralla (Post#16) suggested Odyssey Stratos Mono amps. These are the amps I ordered when I ordered the speakers. While I was pleased with how well the Marantz drove the Dynaudio’s, the Statos’ are amazing with the speakers. If you call Klaus at Odyssey be prepared to be swept away by his enthusiasm. I called to buy a Stratos stereo amp and ended up ordering the Stratos Mono Extremes because I was unable to resist his excitement about marrying his amps to the Dynaudios. I am thoroughly happy with what I bought from him.
     
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  16. StimpyWan

    StimpyWan Forum Resident

    They are decent amp specs. For most real world systems, this receiver would do fine. But, the OP is stepping his system up a notch, with the B&W's, and hopefully the electronics will eventually follow, as budget allows?

    That's a classic text book example of how an amp should behave. Not many amps that can actually do this. And again, nothing within reach of the OP, currently.

    Agreed.

    Same here. Lot's of time spent with and selling B&W. But still, I'd rather get hung up on the music. That's what it's all about. If using the RX-A3030 and the 804's, is a start for the OP, I say why not? What's it hurting? Sure, it'd be great to start with an epic system, but why miss out on the joy of system building? That's part of the fun too. It helps to learn what an improvement sounds like and what you've accomplished. Starting at the top gives you no point of reference. No where to go but down.

    No one is saying the OP can do no better. All we are saying is that it's a start. That's not hard to grasp.

    I've driven speakers that dropped into the 4 to 3 ohm impedance range, with my 3030, and never had an issue. Yamaha has built very nice amps over the years, even Class A. Some of that experience trickles down to gear the 'un-washed masses' can afford. Heck, the 3030 has even received positive press. Still, a separate amp would benefit the OP, and I believe that's been mentioned in this thread. Then, a step at a time, afterwards.

    True. But isn't that what we've been discussing?

    I'm curious about that too, and I look forward to the OP's findings.

    The quest has just begun. Let us slay the dragon first. Then we can storm the castle...!
     
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  17. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    I am not surprised. You got to talk to the engineer who designed the amps. I would have done exactly what you did.
     
  18. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    When Black Elk talks B&W and amplification, stop what you are doing and listen:agree: . A lot of what I know now I learned from Black Elk's posts years and years ago. Always great advice!
     
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  19. lonelysea

    lonelysea Ban Leaf Blowers

    Location:
    The Cascades
    Jeesh, remind me not to invite Black Elk to any listening parties...
    :winkgrin:
     
  20. StimpyWan

    StimpyWan Forum Resident

    I'm not refuting that. It's just the fact the OP has gear and the speakers already. Why not try what he has for now, and improve when you can, later?

    If a speaker score fell in my lap, I wouldn't turn it down, just due to the fact my gear might not be worthy! That would be silly to me. But, if I could 'make do', by adding an outboard amp, why not? You wouldn't necessarily have to scrap everything, and start over, either. IF this were me, I'd use the Yamaha RX-A3030 as a preamp/DAC for now, and find a good amp to go with it. I wouldn't even buy the Oppo. Put that money towards the amp too. That would make for a good starter system. Then expand. Don't rush to change, when there's no real need to do so, right away, is all I'm saying. Add an amp, then go from there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
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  21. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    Sorry, My post wasn't aimed at you. My post was intended for the OP.
     
  22. StimpyWan

    StimpyWan Forum Resident

    That's OK. But, I agree with you. Black Elk gave good advise. It's just that some of us have to start small, and work up...! Nothing wrong with either approach, I suppose? One just gets there faster than the other...! :agree:

    Now back to deciding on which capacitors to use on my next speaker rebuild? Mundorf or Clarity Cap? :shrug:
     
  23. lonelysea

    lonelysea Ban Leaf Blowers

    Location:
    The Cascades
    "Dude, where are your Monoblocks??"

    I too appreciate Black Elk's posts and knowledge of fine British loudspeakers, but the OP is just looking to upgrade his 5.1 system to accommodate some 20-year-old B&Ws. Using 300 watt monoblocks to power Nautilus 805s is overkill, if not completely ridiculous.
     
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  24. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    My favorite amp I have used with my Magnepan MG12s is a vintage McCormack DNA-0.5. I bring this up as the MG12 is also a 4 ohm load and the McCormack also doubles its power from 100 watts per channel into 8 ohms to 200 into 4 ohms. The McCormack also has some unusual sensitivity and voltage gain specs that I feel contribute to its ability to sound even more robust that its specs suggest - and never breaks a sweat driving these difficult speakers to satisfying levels. The best part is, they become available frequently and can be had between $500-$700. Also, Steve McCormack still offers repairs and upgrades for these older products.

    You might also seek out a Belles Reference 150A. The 150A and larger 350A have been reviewed in the past and have an incredible reputation for their ability in the lower registers. Not as easy to find used and a McCormack, but not impossible.

    Just throwing out some other options for you! :wave:
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  25. Clay B

    Clay B Forum Resident

    Those recommending Classe are probably unaware that the company has ceased business. They had moved some production off-shore and had other issues in their last few years. There are, as can be seen from this thread, many other choices.
     
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