Help me decide. Would you trade a recapped Marantz 2245 for Thiel 3.5s?

I have a pair of speakers currently used as surround speakers in my other setup. Originally retailed for ~$6500. The person I got it from bought for ~$4000 about 11 years ago. I got it for ~$600 one year ago. Like you said, not as good on high and mid. Good bass, but nothing else could compared to my Paradigm.

 

I have a few things to say about this. I am 62 years old, so currently my ears' highs roll-off dramatically above 15 kHz, as tested about 6 months ago. But I know from experience at shows, and listening comparisons with my younger friends and customers, that I compensate VERY well, and perceive high frequency extension and detail very much the same as they do. More likely, if I am wrong about the Thiels vs the B&W 804s is my 62 year old memory. The majority of my comments about the 3.5's sound is from when they were current, which (by the way) was long before B&W's Diamond tweeters were introduced. So my current hearing has almost no influence on my listening impressions from 30 years ago. For the recent impressions of the Thiels extremely detailed high frequency performance, I am including the comments by these younger visitors, whose listening skills I have very high respect.

 

Your hearing range is excellent for your age! May be OP's speakers are a bit too old, thus tweeters not working as well as new?

 

I think it is because I always wore high-technology ear plugs at concerts (unless unamplified) and I never stayed in a CES demo room if it was too loud for my comfort. But, I can tell that my ultra-highs are compromised, and somehow I compensate for it, from listening to and comparing audio so much for so many years. This is my favorite hobby (after SCUBA and off-road motorcycling, which my health may never again allow ) and my profession.

Regarding the Thiel tweeters, they are simply silk dome type, and are either bad or good, no in-between. So the OP's different opinion is most likely do to differences in personal preference, or differences in upstream equipment performance, in synergy with the speakers. I would not expect everyone to have the same opinion about ANYTHING, particularly sound.

Interestingly, Steve Hoffman and I hear exactly the same and always share the same opinion. Although he can nail his perception in a matter of seconds, whereas I need a few songs and quite a few minutes, to be sure of my sonuc evaluation. He is amazing in his sonic evaluation capabilities.

 

I'm 43 and a casual audiophile. I can assure you the detail and clarity of the Nautilus 804's on the highs and midrange, which have a totally new design from the Matrix series including all new drivers and cabinets, sound quite a bit better. The bass is deeper and smoother on the Thiels. The tweeters don't sound very good, I'm wondering if its the cross-overs. I guess in the end it doesn't matter, its what sounds better to me. But if y'all came over and listened on my system, I don't think many would be picking the Thiels as sounding superior.

 

Dumb question, have you actually put your ear to the tweeter to ensure it's working?

 

Amp/Speaker matching can be very important.

 

My first audiophile speakers were Thiel 3.5's that I had in my system back in the 90's until I upgraded to the 3.6's. The 3.6's did everything so much better, but the 3.5 were still a pretty awesome speaker. The only concern I would have is whether Thiel is still able to replace blown drivers or not? Replacing parts on your Marantz would probably be an easier chore with aftermarket parts, but Thiel used proprietary drivers that really can't be swapped. Just remember that the Thiel like lots and lots of clean power from an amp, think SS like Rowland, Pass Labs, Levinson, etc.
You really have a tough decision.
Jon

 

I wonder the difference is due to differences in high frequency responses of the speakers.

Thiel looks flat and then roll off at high freq like this:


But the 804 seems a bit hot in the 8 to 13K region and then at 17K and up:

 

Could be but I don't think its the high frequencies that we don't hear anyway. I think its the way the tweeter conveys the frequency, it hangs on to a symbol crashing making it sounds weird and draw attention to itself. The 804's are not hot or fatiguing at all with the Parasound amp. When it was underpowered it was. It is neutral now.

 

yes, they are both working. Not a dumb question at all. But you can tell right away both are working because the detail is pretty good on the Thiels. You would notice right away if it wasn't.

 

By the way, I would absolutely love it if I had just bested my speakers with a effectively a < $600 trade. I have no reason to not like the Thiels more. And I do think they are very good full range speakers. So good that I'm already tempted to jump to the 3.6's because of the positive feedback about them in this thread, and their relative affordability on the used market.

 

Haha, I am just guessing. Buy I do notice that the 804 is about 3 dB hot starting at 8K and about 7db hot at around 9.5K. Those freq can be heard easily by most people in our age range. Cymbals can extend up to 10-17k Hz for crispness, “air” and sparkle, thus I am pretty sure you get better "air" with your 804. : )

 

Confession: I asked because years ago I purchased a pair of used Eminent Technology LFT 8 speakers from a guy within driving distance. I listened to the speakers which were standing in the middle of his living room and thought all was ok. It wasn't until a day or two later that I was walking past the speakers when I noticed a major difference in the sound. I put my ear up to each tweeter and noticed one tweeter was dead.

 

Air is ok. I think they are precise and some people don't like that I guess. I think they just present the sound. Very transparent speakers.

 

ive been spending some quality time with the latest gen diamonds, the 805 d3 and the 804 d3. if the 805 didn' t have such a peak in the bass i would have bought them on the spot. such an incredibly revealing, clean, yet natural and true to life reproduction. much like the harbeth shl5+ and joseph audio pulsars i believe you need to push and extend the high end a bit to capture the high frequency overtones that are present when we listen to live sounds. the trick is to do it cleanly, and B/W have nailed it with these speakers. extremely impressive. im thinking about the 804s if the deal is right. these are very hard to beat and your ears have confirmed it, even the previous gen models....

 

I'm wondering how far back you would go. Going back to the Nautilus goes back 20 years. The 804s model replaced them but I think they were very similar. Audiogon has the full spectrum used right now. My Nautilus, and the D2's for $3800. That price on the D2's is by far the best deal I've ever seen on them used. Although I think the new models are overpriced at $9,000. My experience was that you will probably want more SS high current to drive them, although I have read the newer models don't have the huge ohm dips that the Nautilus were known to have. When I got my 804's I thought I was buying some speakers. But I upgraded everything else in my system because they are so transparent, they truly reward upgrades. I imagine your Harbeths are similar in that regard. I supposed you could bi-amp them with your CMII, but I imagine there are some SS amps better suited to the 804's. Curious to see what route you go. You certainly have well trained ears.

 

I'm listening to these Thiels some more and they are sounding great on my Artisan cut of Graham/Nash S/T. They do present a nice wide sound stage. For $600, they sure punch above their price .

 

Replacement drivers are readily available on Ebay. There were so many more 3.5s sold than 3.6s, that the drivers for 3.5s are much easier to find for sale and much cheaper. It is indeed best to have a couple of spare midrange drivers on-hand, because they are the first to get damaged if you ever play the 3.5 too loud. The tweeters don't get damaged normally, and replacement silk domes are readily available as stock items. The woofers can need work, but can be rebuilt, re-coned or re-foamed by any speaker repair business.

There is also a Thiel parts supplier named Coherent Source, who bought everything from Theil went they finally closed shop. He can supply the tweeters, but he is very expensive.

I bought a used pair of 3.5s, in poor cosmetic condition, on Ebay for $400, and asked the seller to ship only the two tweeters and two midranges, to have more spares that I will probably never need. The midranges alone, that I did have to replace 1, cost me $50 each by themselves. They are ONLY good for Thiel CS3.5 speakers.

CS3.6 speakers are more expensive to buy used, and much more expensive to amplify because they are even more finicky than 3.5s. And they require much more power to sound dynamic. For a much higher budget, they may indeed sound better, but I was never able to match the liveliness and bass quality of the CS3.5s, so I skipped that generation, in favor of waiting for CS3.7s, Jim Thiel's finest speaker that he ever designed.