My father was in the Coast Guard, it wasn't uncommon when we would get transferred when we came home from school my mom would have completely changed the living room layout and sometimes it would change again the next day. I didn't realize at the time but she would change the layout to optimize the sound of the stereo. I realize it might not be an option but don't rule out a complete rearrange putting your system on a different wall. Also some people are able to tame highs using copper cables so that might be worth a try. But it might be trading chasing speakers to chasing cables. I'm hopeful you'll get what you're after! It sucks to get so close and just can't get there.
From the sound you are getting, its on par with Bose! I've just never seen or heard of anyone having such an issue with speakers in room. This is your speaker list : Triangle Magellan Duettos; B&W 803S; B&W CDM 1nt; KEF R300 and not to mention Klipsch. It almost seems like you need total rebuild of rig . I would say there is a serious issue...don't know if its room, gear, cables or maybe you are very sensitive to certain sounds. Perhaps a pro can come in and analyze room for audiophile listening? Perhaps spending good money on more gear isn't the answer as of yet....a pro will point out room issues. Just trying help. Do you blast music as you listen? Or do you say listen around 50-70db's?
Bummer Pete, sorry about that man. I heard the Forte IIIs in a large hotel room and the bass was not overwhelming, I am surprised the IVs are for you- A couple things to try- 1) How far can you pull them from the wall? can you do 2-3 feet? 2) Raise them off the floor- some KLH style risers or similar. As far as you can without making them look goofy. 3) Increase midrange / treble. Aim the drivers on axis so the relative brightness is increased at your listening spot and more balanced with the bass. The horns are highly directional and need to be aimed at your hears horizontally and vertically. 4) One source only - e.g. vinyl? Possibly a rumble filter or better turntable isolation would help. good luck !
the measurements in this review in no way suggest or indicate too much bass... keep working them ! Get the horns on-axis horizontally and vertically. Klipsch Forte IV Review EDIT- note the graph that measures distance from wall- 1 foot from the wall results in the most even bass response.
My Klipsch are just a speaker I like, I don’t advocate for them or feel anyone should like them. I’m completely clear eyes about what they don’t do well. I think my point here is that perfection doesn’t exist and you seem to be looking for that. Just like your room isn’t perfect but it’s close to the beach so you deal with it, happily. At a certain point comparison is the thief of joy. With everything you choose some priorities and make compromises. So much if this “science” is subjective, even the guy that spends 800k on those monster Wilson speakers is going to hear something else that sounds different and want that. If you want to shop for speaker for the rest of your life, have at it. Whether it be B&W, Harbeth. Audio Note, Wilson, Sonus Fabre or Klipsch if you lock yourself down with them for 8 hours at time or 30 hours a week you will find something you don’t like about them or at least want to hear something different.
Too bad . . I realize you have heard more than your share of opinions and been bombarded with advice you probably don't need but it seems to me until you treat the room with whatever issues it has, larger speakers are going to be an issue. As you know, a speaker grill with a blanket will do nothing as far as a bass trap. I remember you saying you couldn't treat the room for various reasons but I wonder if that is really true or you have a possible wrong perception of what that means or looks like. Truth is, most people just don't want to buy treatment as they just want the bling of new gear but treatment is important. There are also floor standing bass traps and acoustic treatment that don't need to be 'installed'. I get that it's your living room and you have a wife so it may not be possible but could look a lot better than big racks of records or a sheet over the tv. Of course I know nothing about your room but something is weird, or possibly you are just being way too anal. As you know there are no perfect speakers that will do everything. I would think if you don't want to treat the room your obvious next step would be to find smaller speakers where the room is less involved. Like you, I can't stand bright speakers. They seem to be the norm lately but seems something is going on that is making even those smaller speakers brighter in your situation. If you go to Upscale check out Cheviots (of course more dough unless you can find a used pair), but I think they will only work IF you had a better room or were able to do some treatment. I have to admit I have not heard them in person and they may be brighter than the Tannoys I have. I have read they take a lot of break in time. I've used vintage Tannoys for decades in my recording studio and in my home. 12" Tannoys can be a beautiful thing. I also have Vandersteens at home because no speaker is going to do everything and I need to check mixes on different speakers, especially ones that are not studio monitors. Personally I like some vintage Altec horn speakers but never cared for Klipsch, but this is certainly a pro Klipsch forum and I admit I haven't heard the newest models. I also agree with someone else that possibly laying off the forums and other people's influences for a little while because every situation / room / set of ears are different while you check out audio shops in person and hear what works for you might be a good idea. Just a thought. This really shouldn't be that difficult to find something you can enjoy and start listening to the music rather than the gear. Or possibly just enjoy your 5s since you keep praising them. This hobby is supposed to be fun not such a chore with revolving gear and endless tail chasing. Take care.
And one last bit of advice that won’t be followed…… Just as my recommendation for more bass was “more power”, the opposite is also true. A SET tube amp air a vintage fisher, Scott, dynaco st-70 or any number of lower watt tube will GREATLY reduce the bass. I’ve got a fisher 400 that I don’t use with the CW’s because the bass is soft. I’d imagine a similar outcome for any amp that is making less than 30wpc. I think I paid $130 on eBay for this Magnavox with vintage tubes that makes 10wpc. Just that with a DAC and a laptop and I have those Wharfedales peaking at 96db. point being, if there is something about those fortes you love, there are ways to lower the base that don’t involve placemat or tearing up your room. It could also create an opportunity to explore Some tube amps that were previously impractical. As in the wonder world of 300b tubes.
I agree with that. As long as you buy used you lose very little, if at all, and so who really cares? You can try different things, which is fun and educational. I usually buy used components and there was a time that I was buying a lot of them in a short period. Nowadays, most components are in my system for at least a year, and many stick around a lot longer than that. Most speakers I try sound good. They sound balanced. But I have a small room and so I always stick to either standmounts or small floorstanders. My next change will be room treatments, unless the two pieces of gear I want to run over the long-term pop up on the used market. But I'm also good with waiting a few years to buy those. Room treatments I'd like to get set up this year. So I will echo the post above this one about room treatments. If imaging is what got you started on this then a poor room will only sabotage the imaging of any speaker. You'll never hear any speaker at its best if the room is messing around with the sound. I guess this is a no-no for some people (WAF), but some treatments actually look great; kind of like artwork. Viccoustic is probably the brand that I'm going to purchase and I think their treatments look superb. My room doesn't need a ton of work and I sit nearfield, but there is some echo that needs to be tamed. Looking at what has worked for you - those B&W's. And what hasn't - Triangle (too bright - a small speaker), and Klipsch (too boomy - a large speaker; and isn't it a party speaker and you're in an apartment?). This makes me think you need a medium sized floorstander like the B&W. A very large standmount maybe could work as well, like the Tannoy Eaton. For the size room you have, I'm not sure something like the Dynaudio Special Forty is ideal. That speaker worked well in my room, and my room is only about 11x13. Your room is quite a bit bigger and it seems you sit further back. Just not sure it's enough speaker for the room. A floorstander from Dynaudio I think might work better. If you can find a used pair and therefore won't lose money if you don't like them, I'd be intrigued to hear the Fyne Audio F501 or F502. I'm using a pair of F501 for home theater and they sound great playing back music, even through an AV receiver (a good one from Cambridge Audio, but still an AV receiver). It's the first speaker I've been happy with for music and voice in that setting. I'd also consider ProAc, Harbeth, Spendor, and AN, which I think will all give you nice levels of detail with refinement and great imaging. But it's very easy to listen too critically and be too demanding, to the point where you'll find fault with any speaker you try. No speaker at these price levels is perfect and there are countless other options to lust over, so you have to mindful of falling into that trap.
I wanted to just add that I gave my earlier advice because I detected maybe a hint of frustration in your posts yesterday. And as you've said you've had the Fortes for 3 whole days, so obviously a bit of patience is needed. However there's nothing wrong with buying and selling various speakers and checking them out in your system if you are doing that and having fun then have at it. For me I just got to a point of visiting my local dealer, to get a used piece of gear repaired, and being consistently loaned pieces that sounded better than the ones I was dropping off. I realize my experience isn't everyone's and I did have the "thrill of the hunt" close to 160 transactions on Audiogon will attest to that. But when I started to truly experience great sound the impetus to change and buy new stuff diminished greatly. I have enjoyed reading your posts and you certainly bring a sense of fun to you're audio adventures I guess it's the laid back SoCal vibe I'm getting. My best friend lived 5 years in OB and I visited often so I know that's a very chill cool place you reside.
Haha I'd rather shred my ears on Triangles or boom my ear drums out on Klipsch than listen to Bose! The 803s had only one issue I didn't like. I could not get them to image well. The CDM1NT I had no issue with particularly, just not refined and as resolving as the 800 series I am used to (my previous speakers to the 803s were B&W N804s). The R300 didn't have any issues particularly I just wanted a more refined sound. I have no issues with the KLH 5's other than they just aren't a real detailed refined sound. The only speakers I've had serious issues with are the brightness of the Triangles and so far the bass on the Klipsch. But it's way too soon to give up on the Klipsch as I have options to dial in the bass including more positioning and possibly moving some things around the room. Maybe acoustic panels behind them. I got options out the wazoo including possibly selling them for a profit. So all is not lost. I do not blast music at all. I've lived in apartments for the last 9 years and never had a noise complaint or even heard a comment from a neighbor. I also value my hearing and try to preserve it after a youth of abusing it.
Good stuff thank you for the suggestions. I will try them out this week. No I play CD's also. Occasionally stream from my Macbook to my oppo. My TT is wall-mounted much to your disdain.
OB is great and we head over there for some shows at the Holding Company or to hit up dog beach and watch the K9's rampaging in the waves and sand. If you are ever out here hit me and up and I'll show you the best damn record store I've ever been to..if you are into vinyl. I'll also shred your ear drums with my Triangles. You are spot on about me being frustrated yesterday because I was digging the Fortes and thinking I might be onto something and then the bass floodgates opened up. However I'm feeling optimistic about getting them dialed in. I think your post was what I needed to hear. Patience is not my forte. 160 transactions! Oh my. I have 7. I am being very picky about speakers because I've had sound that was truly excellent to my ears and I can easily replace the sound by buying another set of 800 series B&W's. The 805D3's are supposedly excellent imagers and I already know I like the sound. If I don't end up keeping the Fortes I'll probably grab a pair of those and be done with it. My system is already tailored to make that series shine. But I'm going to give the Fortes another month at least.
Thanks for sharing part of your journey and you make some great posts about being too critical. I've scratched the special 40's from my list because they have a lot of bass and frankly the first thing I noticed about them when I heard them was the prominent bass. And I read a review that pointed out the first thing you notice about them is the bass. Although I could plug them I guess. It's probably not too important in all this discussion but I should probably point out that the Triangles are HUGE standmount speakers. They dwarf every other standmount speaker I've own in all 3 dimensions. It must be how they are able to generate bass down to 38HZ with only a 6 inch woofer.
I would give Dynaudio core 7 a shot....if they did it for ya then you could sell your amp too...... These can be had for 4k & with a return policy that won't be a problem thru several dealers.
Yeah, the first thing I noticed about the S40 is the bass. But I don't think it's even physically possible for a small bookshelf speaker with a 7" woofer to put out more bass than the Forte's. I don't think it's possible for it to even come close. My room is smaller than yours, 11x13, and the S40 worked really well there. I have a lot of furniture packed into this small room too. The only way I can position my speakers to sound good in this room is diagonally. And that works exceptionally well as I can give the speakers some room, and there is room behind me too (i.e. no wall directly behind me to reflect sound immediately back to me). The bass was definitely prominent, but it was still in balance. It is rich, with a lot of weight, but definitely not too much of it. The speakers need room to breathe, and they need an amp that has good control. I'm not sure the Cary would be enough. It might be. My Sugden wasn't, but a Nait XS2 was. Anyways, I'm not trying to talk you into getting more speakers. Just thought I'd bring a few up if you still end up trying more out. It's always best to give each speaker a chance over at least 2 weeks I'd say. And one thing that comes to mind...I'm not sure what kind of floors you have. If you have floors that can get excited by sound, maybe try decoupling your speakers with a set of Gaia feet or something from Herbie's. Might be worth a shot, though I'm not sure how easy that is to do with the Forte.
All right, man. My hope for you is to get this sorted out! To much invested in your rig to be going through for so long. I hope you can get back to just enjoying tunes and getting lost in music. Wishing you well.
I'm happy to report that I found a speaker placement that solves the over-abundance of bass. 3 feet from my back wall works for now unless the bass continues to grow. Heavier toe in than I normally do also really dialed in the sound. Moving them out also improved the 3D image. I'm stoked. The Fortes are excellent speakers. I really like what I'm hearing in this position. I've realized that while I'm 3 feet from the back wall I have LP storage on the back wall that extend about 17 inches from the back side of the speakers. When I put the Fortes against the wall it was effectively corner loading the speakers. It made for incredibly deep but overpowering bass. So even though they are 3 feet from the back wall they are playing like they are maybe 18 inches from the back wall. Not sure the current location is practical as they are pretty far out into the room. But I'm happy to say that I was able to find a solution for the Fortes (taming the bass) that I was never able to achieve with the Triangles (taming the bright treble). I have some other ideas like Tony's idea of putting them on short stands. Possibly covering the passive radiator with a towel (something like that). Or some room treatments behind the speakers. Don't get me wrong the bass is a blast when it's balanced. Manages to be big, bold and deep and while still sounding like an instrument instead of a boom. It's Rock and Roll baby. I'm thankful there was some discussion about moving furniture around because in December we ordered a couch that is supposed to arrive in about mid-may. As such I'm not making any purchases or sales (except for the Triangles) until we get the new couch and chairs organized. My room measures big technically but it plays small because it is so full of furniture, bookcase, end tables, couches, LP storage, TV and AV setup etc etc.
I like this suggestion Dennis and I appreciate the effort you've put into your posts in helping me out. I would be remiss if I didn't mention that earlier I had stated the Parasound was a better match for the Fortes than the Cary tube amp. This has changed and the sound is superior with the Cary 40 watt amp...at least in my room. Not just because of the bass either, the Cary is a sweet sounding amp. I'm pretty ignorant about Flea Watt amps but they might just be the ticket. I'm hearing an awful lot to like about the Fortes tonight.
Very glad it's working out...you actually motivated me to move my Polk's around to see if I can get a little happier. I brought them forward quite a bit and I actually enjoyed them! I'll tweek from this spot.
Glad to hear things are getting dialed in! I agree about tube amps and the Fortes. I've used Class AB, D and tubes with my FIIIs, and the tube amp provides the best balance and tone. That Peachtree I mentioned controls the woofers like that drill sergeant in Full Metal Jacket, but that sure doesn't sound like a problem in your room. My experience with the Heritage line has taught me that placement and break in are more pronounced than any other speakers I've tried. I'm glad that placement solved your bass issue as things are getting broken in. I hate to say it, but you might need to refine placement more as things continue to settle in. I'm curious about flea-watt amps too, but I've backed off of the idea for now. My tube complement with KT77s in Triode mode is killer right now.
I've come to realize that my room is just full of things. People talk about how big their room is but you rarely hear them talk about how full a room is of furniture etc. I realized that a couch was cutting off a lot of the room acoustically (it's taller than the drivers in the Fortes.) so my room was playing a lot smaller than it's dimensions. I removed the KLH 5's to the left of my system, got rid of an end table and was able to pull the couch 1.5 ft closer to the wall. In other words, I gave them more room to breathe on both sides and it helped reduce the bass in the room some. They are continuing to open up and I'm noticing more treble and the speakers sound fuller, more forward. They are quite a bit different sounding than when they arrived. I'm probably at about 40 hours on them at this point. I like them. I am enjoying them quite a bit. Oddly, I kind of liked the sound they produced before they were broken in which I find funny.
