Help with first integ. amp - Primaluna v. Rogue v. Line Magnetic v. McIntosh v. Naim

The Brimars are basically Mullards that don’t shave off high frequencies, so no reason to switch there unless you needed to tame brightness in your system. 12AX7 is the fun Mullard IMO.

 

That's why I bought the Brimars, I didn't want to lose anything up top, however after upgrading my speakers and DAC I've noticed some recordings are a bit brighter and maybe taming it might not be a terrible idea.

 

I do keep saying this and not as an overgeneralization. Consider my previous statement:

I think that your Splendors do also qualify for the audiophile monkey coffin designs.

I would be willing to venture that some 98% or so of people today who buy speakers are driving them with SS amplification. Most people today that are buying speakers are buying the more for HT to accompany their purchases of large flat screen TV's, that are driven by AV receivers and not so much as for music.

As such, manufactures for the majority of these modern day speakers, mostly tower designs, are designing them to sound their best with the solid state amplification that their buyers are using them with, in their homes.

It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for these manufactures to design their speakers to perform better with tube amplifiers.

As I did point out, that certain designs, such as Zu's and other monkey coffin audiophile designs do sound better than most modern towers designed primarily for HT applications in mind.

I simply reiterated the point that tube amplifiers do not necessarily bring audio nirvana to everyone's party and people should take this into consideration.

As they should take into consideration that most single ended amps are not ideal for all monkey coffin designs just because they are tube based. Many single ended amplifiers lack the necessary power to provide the volume and dynamics that might better be served by a more powerful class A/B tube amplifier.

 

You are most welcome Echoes Myron!

This amplifier, running in pure class "A" single ended, with those 845 power tubes, sound so good and holographic, that it is spooky good.

A couple of factors contribute mainly to this.

Class A/B amplifiers, particularly those running in ultralinear mode (which is how they are designed to run) need and rely on negative feedback to reduce the distortion that would otherwise be abundantly present and is inherent to A/B designs.

This feedback does compromise the phase relationship that is present in the original signal.

Having point source speakers like LS50's preserves that all important time alignment that is necessary to preserve phase and therefore a holographic image.

Although the Altec's are not quite what you would consider to be point source, they are one of the finest time aligned speakers ever designed and produced. They were designed specifically for use in movie theaters, where time alignment of the two drivers is critical and a large problem back in the original days talkie movies.

When you look at the design of the Altec 828 bass bin, it is not only horn loaded but the bass driver itself is deliberately placed deep into the interior of the cabinet and not by accident.



Doin this, places the voice coil in the same vertical plane as the driver on the 511B HF horn. This places both drivers in perfect time alignment.

This keeps the sound in phase from the source to the listening position, preserving all of the ambient information that may be present in the signal to provide localization of the different instruments and that holographic presentation.



But there is only so much you can do, if the amplifier is not preserving any ambient information that may be present in the original source material.

In a class A/B amplifier, one tube in a channel is handling the positive portion of the sine wave and the other output tube is handling the negative porting of the same sine wave.

These two signals must be reassembled in order to recreate the complete sine wave as it was in its original form, only now amplified.

In doing this, you encounter notch distortion, at the zero point, where the positive and negative portions of the sine wave meet and are reassembled.

With a single ended design, a single output tube (per channel) handles both the positive and the negative portions of the sine wave. With this topology, there is not need to put the signal back together, as it was never taken apart in the first place. Thus, there was never any notch distortion and 100% phase is maintained throughout the entire sine wave.



Unfortunately, due to my retirement back in December of 2018, this audio room is no more.

If it were, I would love to have you up as my guest, to spend a few complimentary days at the motel and to have the opportunity to have auditioned the 518iA as I originally had it set up.

I assure you, that you have great point source listening experience with your LS50's and in nearfield, it is as close to as perfect of a holographic experience as you are ever likely to encounter. I don't think that even the A7's can top that aspect.

But, with the Altec's, you would experience how truly magnificent of an amp that the 518iA really is.

The reverse happened to me, when I discovered yet how magnificent the Altec's can be, when driven by an amp like the 518iA.

I can tell you, that even those who engineered and built the A7's over a half century ago, never had the opportunity to experience what their speaker would sound like, when expanded to a 3-way and 4-way design and with custom higher grade crossovers, turntables/carts and amplifiers like the 518iA.

Even back in their day, most amplifiers were now SS or of A/B tube design.

If these, who birthed these A7's, could hear them as they have the potential to be heard, they would be shaking their heads and saying "we built these?".

 

I know this is off topic, but strike the above comment. On a whim I decided to swap over to the 4 ohm taps. I had been running the 8 ohm taps on my previous speakers (GE Triton 3) so stuck with it on the new (One.R) assuming that same brand and all, same overall response. Wrong. 4 ohm tightened everything right up, removed the top end brashness. Mikey happy again.

 

They definitely measure at 4 ohms.

GoldenEar Technology Triton One.R loudspeaker Measurements

 

Ok I get your point that many speaker manufacturers are trying to ensure that their gear works well in high powered HT/AVR systems and thus generally not built with the constraints of tubes in mind. I am with you there.

That said, there are still many brands that claim to be focussed on pure non-HT audio and would claim to be amenable to tubes. So I would like to understand how you define an "audiophile monkey coffin design" and what makes them more amenable to tubes than other build styles ...

... I am not sure that my modern skinny, tall Spendors are the kind of classical Spendors that you maybe thought they were (and everything that many purists don't like about modern towers, at least in terms of cabinet shape and resulting constraints).

 

Speakers including hirns have their problems and I remember discussing horns with Peter Qvortrup of Audio Note who has owned numerous horns including the VOTT and A7 among others over the years.

HE typically comes at the expense of size. So if you want HE you need a large driver if you also want bass you need an even bigger speaker OR you need to lower the efficiency to get the smaller driver to move more air.

I have heard speaker like the VOTT and Klipshorn. And I have compared them to my own speakers which are a full 10dB less sensitive. And the horns here really can give a superior sense of dynamic ease. They simply go real loud with less power. So you get more of a visceral presentation, a snap, on your 8 watts than you get from my speakers. But IMO that is the end of their advantage. In every other parameter from ambiance, to vocals, the tonal accuracy, to soundstage, imaging, treble, bass (depth and quality), midrange, I'd take my speakers and several others.

Modern horns from Acapella have fewer compromises and IMO are the best sounding horns that I have heard. BUT they are not as sensitive ... 93dbish and are dso expensive that they are a bit like discussing a Bughatti. Yes it may be great but we're never owning one so the greatness of them isn't really practical.

Spendor is not that hard to drive and neither is Harbeth. But they're not made with tubes in mind

 

I just did the same with my B&Ws. After using the 8 ohm taps for a year, the speakers were sounding too bright to me. Changing to the 4 ohm taps completely corrected the frequency response. It was not a subtle change. The high end is now perfectly balanced, and the mids are gorgeous.

 

As per J. Atkinson's measurements of the 805 D3 - there are some extreme phase angles and impedance dips ... "Tube amplifiers will probably work best with this speaker when used from their 4 ohm output-transformer taps."

The prevailing wisdom seems to be that using the 4 ohm tap is often the way to go on most tube amps, regardless of speaker load ... but not necessarily for Line Magnetic for reasons I don't yet quite grasp ... J. Atkinson on the LM-518ia: "The only unusual aspect of its behavior is that, whereas I usually recommend that a tube amplifier be used with the lowest-value output-transformer tap that gives adequate loudness, the opposite is the case with the LM-518IA. Using its 16 ohm tap with 8 ohm speakers will give the lowest distortion, though the subjectively benign second harmonic will then be joined by some third harmonic.—"

I am currently using the 8 ohm tap on my LM - I guess I will need to try both directions!

 

I was going to mention that when I made the same move with the LM518 (8 to 4 ohm taps for the LS50s), the difference was there but not nearly as pronoumced as when I made the switch w/ the Prinaluna/B&W.

In fact, I am living with it for a while to decide if I will go back to the 8 ohm taps.

 

4 ohms taps didn´t work for me either with my PL Dialogue Premium Integrated & Monitor Audio Silver 6, that are 8 ohms rated.
It didn´t even work with some Monitor Audio RX 2 (one model behind than the others, similar to Silver 2 I think) that are 6 ohms rated, somehow, I always find 8 ohms taps better sounding.

 

"Somewhat optimistically specified at 8 ohms, the LS50's impedance (fig.1, solid trace) drops to 4 ohms at 200Hz and to 5.4 ohms at the top of the audioband. The electrical phase angle is generally mild, but the combination of 5.3 ohms and –41° at 135Hz, a frequency where music often has high energy, will make the speaker work at its best with a good, 4 ohm–rated amplifier"

So both of your speakers tend to better on lower taps it would seem, the B&W's moreso than the LS50's. With the LM puliing a bit in the other direction. Seems to all correlate with your subjective observations.

My Spendors are definitely 8 ohm so not too fussed to try 4 ohm ... "The specified impedance is 8 ohms. Fig.1 shows that the A7's impedance magnitude (solid trace) remains above 8 ohms for the entire treble and most of the low bass. The minimum magnitude was a still-high 6.1 ohms at 228Hz, and while the electrical phase angle is sometimes high, this is always when the impedance is also high, mitigating any drive difficulty."
.... maybe one key reason why they sound so good paired with the LM's - the impedance loads are copacetic.

 

The reason that "audiophile monkey coffin design" speakers are more amenable to tubes is because they are quite often destined by their respective manufactures for the audiophile market and the user with tube amps in mind. No other particular reason.

They are not the only styles that are more amenable to tube amplification, I didn't say that they were. I was more including them in a general class of non horn specific speakers, which are designed from the ground up, with tubes in mind.

As I commented, most modern speakers are tower in design, with most of them being purchased primarily for the HT market and as such, are mostly driven by SS amplification, namely AV receivers. That being the case, they are voiced to sound there best with the SS amps, that would likely be used with them.

In general, the audiophile market has a tendency not to favor tower designs, instead favoring "audiophile monkey coffin designs". The audiophile market, tends to use their speakers more exclusively for stereo and not for HT use.

While I do own many different horn loaded speakers, I also own many non-horn loaded speakers, most of those are bookshelf or tower designs.

Because the tower speaker designs that I own (other than Klipsch Icon WF-35's), are of modern design, the are voiced for SS amps, which is perfectly fine with me. So I use them (with the exception of the non-horn loaded Zu's) with SS amps.

Running tube amps is a more costly proposition and I don't see any point in running those speakers with tube amps, when SS serves them fine.

To achieve similar performance, I would need to employ higher powered tube amps and the cost to performance ratio of doing so, would be diminishing returns.

I certainly don't see a problem with a "audiophile monkey coffin design" manufacturer like Splendor, to make tower design speakers that are more conducive to tube amps. I don't think that is has anything in particular to do with a monkey coffin design vs. a tower design. I think has everything to do with the intent of the manufacture and no other particular limiting factor.

I use my towers equally with stereo and HT. I think they perform equally well in both applications.

I don't use the Altec theater speakers for HT, simply because the don't fit, where the tower speakers fit, on either side of the TV.

If I had a large enough room and utilized a front projection system with a large screen, I would seriously consider using the Altec A7's in a surround sound HT and for stereo as well.

I would also consider using tube amps for HT as well. These would be of particular advantage for voices with classic movies. Not as much so, in modern movies.

A friend of mine, used to have a home in upstate N.Y. and he did set up a 5.1 channel HT system, using all A7's and using Phase Linear SS amps.

Two of my A7 cabinets are from this system.

 

It is import to realize that A7's were not designed for the home, but for pre-sound as theater speakers.

I completely understand you position comparing their advantages to the advantages of your speakers.

However, I have never advocated people taking a pair of A7's home under their arms and plugging them in to their home stereo.

With that in mind, and not being in an economic class that would make Bughatti level speakers available to me, I proceeded to modify and work with my already restored and custom modified A7's.

Employing custom crossovers, moving them to a 3-way design with another custom crossover, adding a commercial passive subwoofer and high quality single ended amplification make them completely different in every way from stock A7's.

My A7's serve as examples of what Altec A7's can do, given the time, effort and expense, not what stock A7's are capable of, performance wise.

I would have loved to be able to have a pair of AN monkey coffins to compare right beside my A7's. Unfortunately, that was not to happen.

I will, venture a guess, that my particular pair of A7's can do what the typically are known for doing best, plus more of what speakers like your AN's are known for, than how close your AN's can come to what my A7's do, all the way around.

I would figure that buying and converting a stock pair of A7's into what mine are, would be similar in cost to what your AN's would retail for.

 

A lot of comparisons tend to never be straight up "fair" anyway. When comparing speakers for instance it isn't really enough to use the same amp, but the appropriate amp for the given speaker. And room size and set up matters.

A corner loaded horn or the AN E will be better from a corner from a wall that is solid. Concrete or Brick. This may not at all be good for a B&W. The 8 watt amp is great for the corner loaded horn/AN E but abysmal for the B&W. So the B&W floorstander will need some, say, flagship Classe or Sim Audio amps to get everything out of them.

I get weary with DIYers because they own unicorns. A guy on another forum said his speakers were the best in the world. Modified Bose 901s they he spend heaps to modify. DIYers tend to love what they put together and it is generally impossible to go out and hear one. All most people have is the abiliity to audition currently available models. Or standard models from yesteryear. The classic horns I have heard were in South Korea and it was fun listening to them and also B&W Matrix 802 versus newer Nautilus 802.

As you know, the only speakers I'd probably sell my AN Es for would be a horn. Largely due to my taste in music. But the cost and size get prohibitive.

 

I agree with you on the unicorn thing.

Back in my teens, when Rock was the thing, I thought that the A7's were everything a speaker could possibly be. I also figured that "harshness" was part of the recording and reproduction process and just learned to deal with it.

When the later 70's came along and Disco became popular, which as a Rocker, I naturally hated. But there was one club in Fort Lauderdale, which had a large dance floor and the best sound system I have ever heard of in a dance club or nightclub playing dance music.

This place had be repurposed from its original concept, which failed. The main building was on a entire city block just past the old downtown area of Fort Lauderdale and was a hollow interior two story building.

There was a bar that wrapped around the building on the inside with a large dance floor like a basketball court.

They had mid cabinets with horns around the perimeter, pointing down on the dance floor. From the ceiling, JBL builitt tweeters hund down over the dance floor.

At each end of the dance floor were a could of huge sub bass cabinets, oriented sideways and directed across the dance floor.

The JBL super-tweeters could really take the top of your head off and the subs could kick you in the chest like a mule.

Before this, all P.A. applications had been only two way, like the Altec's.

I never knew what other information was missing from up top and way down below. And this was before all of the synth sub-bass that was to come along later in the eighties, with more emphasis on EDM type music.

I began to rethink things, quite a bit.

I ran across the theater grey A7's in my photos on eBay, that had been restored by a guy in California.

What caught my particular attention were the super-tweeters and the custom crossovers that he had built for them, as it was an idea that I had harbored these many years, from the Disco era days. With that in mind, I bid and won the auction. I had these A7's shipped in from California.

I really bought them more on a lark than anything else. I'm not back in the Rock era anymore and on a practical basic, operate a motel. I myself realized the A7's for what they were (or that I thought they were). Having owned them for over a period of more than four decades, I never would have associated them with high resolution home speakers. I freely admit, I bought them more out nostalgia reasons than anything else. I really planned on storing them in a closet, not having really any practical use for them.

The first thing I did after they arrived, was to commit an act of A7 heresy, that was to install some wheels on them. A7 purests would not do this. But as I have owned them from long ago and installed wheels on my first pair, I did so again. Moving around 175 pound speakers without wheels was not in my thinking.



I am not really a D.I.Y.er, in the aspect that I don't possess the skills to actually build anything. I consider myself to be a systems integrator, who takes various components, many of them unrelated and integrates them into a unified system.

In keeping with my complete lack of carpentry and associated skills, I was most graciously allowed to allocate some time from Tom, who is a lifelong friend of mine and a state licensed General Contractor to come over when the truck arrived from California bearing the Altec 828 bass cabinets, in order to install the wheels for me.

I might not be a D.I.Y.er, but I am often pedantically insistent on things being performed correctly.

The A7 design was designed for theater applications. It was designed to project sound out into an auditorium, not into the confines of an average living room. In a home, I don't feel that one has a need to specifically adopt the precise A7 design to be home VOTT's. Even Altec themselves acknowledged this, with their home audio versions of their Voice Of the Theater designs, employing their commercial horns/drivers and bass speakers in more moderately sized home cabinets, like the Valencia's and the Model 19's.

Here is a D.I.Y. build that I came across on the Internet that is more compact and is amenable to home use, sizewise. IT has even been adapted to a 3-way system. Not being able to actually hear them, I can not comment personally attest to their sound quality or if they would quality to be true to A7's. But I would hazard a guess that their performance is every bit up to that of a real A7.

I think that there can be almost infinite variations of an A7 cabinet, that could be considered as valid alternatives to Altec's more traditional designs.



It is important not to blanketly sell the D.I.Y.ers short based on some segments that build their own speakers based only on specific attributes, such as having large concert type speakers. Most of these individuals have a limited scope as to what real audio is or might be.

Not limiting this line of thought to D.I.Y.ers, I think the same thinking can be equally applied to a good many of the commercial speaker manufacturers. Maybe even more so, since they, at least, should know the difference.

The speakers in the upper left corner were D.I.Y. speakers that are modified A7 designs by forum member @Wardsweb, as are the custom cabinetry on similarly modified A7's in the lower right corner where the cabinet is inverted and the horn/driver assembly is mounted on the inside of the cabinet at the top. The cabinet was then covered with a veneer wood and placed on a bass. Altec did the same thing themselves in their home version of the A7, which is the A7-500W, in a walnut veneered cabinet.



With prior experience, I decided that I did not want to either use active electronic crossovers, nor use original Altec crossovers, which I didn't have any real affection for back in my teens. With that in mind, I went to custom A.L.K. crossovers, designed primarily for the legacy Klipsch La Scalas.

Moved on to tube amps, starting with high power monoblocks and down to a 3.9-Watt Decware single ended design.

While, I had no preconceived notions in mind for the A7's, I just managed to have an idea or two, which I followed up on, bumbling my way to where I have brought the A7's. It is only these ideas, through persistent and ever evolving efforts that they became realised.

If nothing else, it is proof that the whole can be more than the sum of its individual parts.

I will say, that if were are willing to take a really agnostic approach and take the position "audio for audio's sake", that we must embrace the idea that a $10k SS amplifier, may very well present superior audio than a $5k tube amplifier.

But then, we are also charged with accepting that great audio may also include large speakers, commercial or otherwise.

To accept one construct without accepting the other is simply denying reality.

Horn speakers can and are successfully integrated into homes. Noting that member @UnityCoupled has done so, in the photo below.



Modern audiophiles are charged to know what vintage audiophiles have known for ages, that good things often come in large packages.

These packages can be adaptable to homes, if we have the willingness to do so. Hereby realising that is a big IF.

I do realize that you are an acceptor of horn speakers, but I am also remain convinced that you remain AN concentric (maybe if they made a large horn speaker)? Just kidding, but... what if?

You are correct though. You can not just take any vintage home or pro-audio speaker (at least any of the models that I am personally familiar with) and have them sound as good as a well designed speaker, like your speakers. That is simple reality. They don't, none of them.

Your descriptions of them are right on the money.

But, with the proper modifications, they can be coaxed to do some rather spectacular things (for those of use who are not on Bughatti budgets).

Having high sensitivity speakers opens up many low power amplifier possibilities that average sensitivity speakers are less than ideally matched for.

People do manage to fit A7's into the darnedest places... It just take a bit of determination...

 

that looks like blue bottle coffe in Oakland area. I been there but never noticed the speakers

 

That sounds like that may be the place. I remember being under the impression that was the general area that it was in and it definitely a coffee house.

I found the photo on line and had to to my horn speaker collection.

 

Very cool to see this thread still alive and kicking! It has been a long time since I've been active here but I am still so happy with my choice of the 805ia. Matches wonderfully with my Spendor D9's.

On a side note, @Strat-Mangler did you guys ever confirm if the cap issue extends to the 805ia? Not sure if LM made any worthwhile changes between the 508 and 805 but hope that is one of them.

 

Considering the 805 and D7.2 now...D7.2 demo going very well with LM34ia, accuphase e-270, and a borrowed lm501ia. Need to hear them with the 805 in house though.

 

I bought my LM805ia knowing full well that I might swap out my Spendors A7's for D7.2's at some point in the future. Given the known great synergy of the LM805ia with other current Spendors models (including the original D7's) I have no doubt they will sound amazing. Please post your findings - if not in this thread then another. My biggest concern is if they still have the slightly hot top-end that the D7's have - and which is why some, myself included, preferred the A7's ...

 

Maybe it's due to the 805 which I consider to be a fairly neutral, trending on slightly warm amp, but I never found the Spendor D9's to be hot at the top end at all. Again, this is possibly due to the synergy between these speakers and tubes but no harsh highs that I can hear.

 

The local shop that sold me my LM805 and the Spendor D9's also carries Accuphase. They love the pairing of Accuphase and Spendor.

 

The D9 (or D9.2) will be my next speakers as long as I have the proper space for them/I'm not living in an apartment.