Help with first integ. amp - Primaluna v. Rogue v. Line Magnetic v. McIntosh v. Naim

Several months ago I was pretty active on this forum trying to get a handle on PrimaLuna vs Line Magnetic vs Rogue. I tried PL Evo 300 and the Rogue CMII, and they didn't play well with my Tekton Electron SE's. I shared the results of those trials back then. I got a lot of useful information from a bunch of you. In case anyone cares, I thought I'd report back that I yesterday order the LM 34ia. This is a more modest rendering than the more popular 805 and others, but might be the right match for me. I love that I can run either EL34's or KT88's with it. Very sweet midrange with the EL34's, and more bass punch with the KT88's. Surely not as high performance as the $5k LM entries, but for $2K it looks like a steal. One forum participant who is fairly knowledgeable owns one, and has been delighted with it, paired with some pretty high end equipment. Since my speakers are 98db sensitivity, I don't need four KT120's blasting through them (Cronus Magnum II). Wish me luck please, and I'll report back after some burn in time. I hope to have it by next week.

BTW, the one I ordered is one out of the two last ones the US distributor has. Future ones have to come from China, and right now, it reportedly a long and indefinite wait on those, because of what's going on over there. Cheers.

 

Congrats, I'm sure you'll love it!

 

Just checking in to see how the LM 34ia is working out for you.

 

Hello All from Singapore.


This is my first post on this forum though I have read a lot of posts but I decided to become a member because I am on my way to becoming my Tube journey and I believe this forum is the bible for tubes!


My setup is as follows


Speakers - Elac Adante AF61 (87dB/6 ohm)

SS Amplifier - Peachtree Nova 300 Integrated with Phono

TT - Rega Planar 3 with Elys 2 cartridge (Using the built in Phono)

Music Server - Elac Discovery with Tidal.

Speaker Cables - Tellirium Q Black 2

Power Cable – Shunyata Venom HC V2

Power Conditioner – AQ Niagra 1000

Music Taste – Hard Rock, Slow Rock, Acoustic Rock, Indie, Country, Smooth Jazz (Night Time) and Electronic ( House Party)


I started my journey with the Andrew Jones designed 99 dollar Pioneer speakers and found my way to the Elac UniFi UB5 before settling for the Adantes. At least in Singapore, I find the price to performance ratio to be excellent for the Elac range of products. I really enjoy the Elac Adante with the Peachtree Nova 300 but I have been toying with the idea to bring in a warmer Amp to sweeten the sound a bit. I got an Ifi tube buffer and that was the first time the idea of tubes struck me but I was always told that for solid state gear is what gives you the dynamics and the details and I was getting all that from my system. However the idea of Tubes were always in my mind. However time went by and I was ready(saved enough money) to upgrade my amp to chase the ultimate sound. I was evaluating the Luxman Class A and AB flagship integrateds. My mind said Class A was not going to drive my speakers so the 509LX was kind of the ones I had my eyes on. From reviews and forum talk and dealer information, I was sure that the Luxman 509 would give the sufficient sweetness to my speakers which will give me the sound that I was chasing. I had also auditioned the Mcintosh MC252 with the Elac Adantes. I honestly had a lot of expectations from that pairing but it let me down. The MC252 just could not tame my bass and it was all over the place.


I then started reading about tube amps and I felt that instead of buying another solid state, why don’t I keep the peachtree as my SS driver and then look for a tube driver. I can divide duties between them. I also use my speakers as fronts for my tv so the peachtree can handle that and when I want to just listen to music, I can fire up the tubes. Line Magnetic is a well known brand in Singapore and I have dealt with the dealer before as he also deals with Mytek and I have had the Mytek Brooklyn in the past.


805IA vs 150IA


I have read every article about these amps in forums and reviews alike and I have narrowed down my choice to these two. 805IA seems to be a very popular choice and 150IA seems to be a powerful beast. Since both cost the same, cost is not a deciding factor. I have an audition in a few days but I cannot take my Adante to the dealer nor can the dealer bring the amps to my house due to the weight! So I am going to take my Elac UniFi UB5 85db@4 ohms )book shelves to audition because I feel that they are the starting point of development for the Adantes.


I have written to a few LM dealers across the world and they have been super helpful but the opinion has been mixed. Some suggest the 150iA as it will be a better match for my speakers and future speakers since they can drive almost anything. Some was eloquent about the 805ia and that it is just magical and has enough power for my speakers. My dealer also has the ATC SM40 and he says that the 805 can easily drive them to decent sound levels without losing out on bass control.


What do you think?

Can current owners or tube gurus suggest based on my above description which amp would be a better match? I sit at about 9 feet from my speakers and I will not listen to them above 80 db loudness. My room size is a rectangular open plan about 16x12 will be the listening area. Do I need the 100 watts? Or will the SET amp do the job?


Thank you so much.

 

First off, welcome to the forum, brownmagic!

I like to run multiple systems at the same time, using the same source.

I have a 5.1 channel SS system with a tube separate system.

Over the years, I have made many upgrades to these systems.

I continue to use my original Peachtree iNova (upgraded from the Nova), as the main source selector, system DAC and preamp.

I use its preamp output for the external SS power amps. I also use its line output for the tube preamp and external power amp that I use on the vintage Altec Lansing horn speakers.

I like Peachtree gear.

I also like the idea of separate power amplifiers, so that I can try different models.

Among them, I gave used a Line Magnetic 511iA with KT77 power tubes and a 518iA SET with 845 power tubes.

As a note, member @Echoes Myron bought my LM 518iA and is using it with his LS-50's.

I very much like LM amplifiers and would not hesitate to recommend them.

I put together a system tour of my former audio room. It is after my equipment listing and has photos and descriptions of the equipment, if you are interested.

 

Just a quick note of correction. I typed 511iA when I should have typed 211iA, my bad...

 

Thanks S&G! From the time you replied, lot of things have changed. I think like most tube noobs, I missed an important point. I currently have my SS placed on a rack and a TV is above the Rack. The rack is also about 2 feet high. Two big concerns. The heat. The safety. The heat might burn my TV screen and I have a 7 month old toddler who will start walking in a few months. So I was in a huge dilema and I dropped the idea as I could not imagine anything happening to my Kid. My dealer also said the 805 tubes will get very hot so I cant place them near the TV.

However as most of us here, I just was not ready to give up. A few people suggested that I try EL34 tube based amps and that they will sound sweet and the heat will not be a deal breaker. Can you share your view on this approach? Since this is my first time to the tube, I dont mind starting with a more affordable amp, learn more about tubes, try different tubes and figure out if this is what I want. The main criteria is that they need to be able to drive my speakers for my low volume listening.

 

Are Primaluna amps available where you live? I definitely recommend them. They have great midrange, and the EL34 run cooler than the big tubes on the LM (they still put out some heat of course). A great way to get into tubes--both as an entry point and as a destination.

 

Hello EM - We do have Primaluna but the EVO 100 costs the same as the LM805. LM is cheaper in Singapore I guess due to our trade with China. Is there any EL34 designs in LM that you think might work for me? I also came across this widely popular China made amp.



From the review and from comments from the users, it seems to have enough power to drive my speakers comfortably and the sonics seem to be good too and it costs under 1k USD. It seems to be compatible with EL34, KT88 and 6550 tubes and might be a great way to experiment with tubes. I know its from China but LM used to be an unknown brand in the west but was quite popular in Singapore so it will have to be a gamble that I have to take. But as mentioned earlier, the heat is the main concern.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

 

I'm pretty sure Line Magnetic make an EL34 integrated amp. Is it the LM211ia?

 

Yes the LM 211ia is an EL34 based amp. This is one of the two LM amps that I have owned. I incorrectly typed 511iA when I meant to type 211iA, which I corrected.

In my 211iA, I was running KT77 power tubes, rather than EL34 power tubes. I will note that I had purchased this amp from another forum member and this is the power tubes that was installed in the amp when I purchased it.

I did prefer the sound signature of the modern KT77 power tubes over modern production EL34 power tubes, which I don't particularly care for.

Since moving to tube amplification on my vintage Altec Lansing A7's, I have tried a full dozen, new and used tube amplifiers, including integrateds and a vintage Fisher 500C receiver.

Overall, I do prefer the sound of modern production KT88's over other power tubes in my A/B class amplifiers.

I have used them in my Rogue monoblocks and single power amplifiers.

I also had a PrimaLuna KT88 based Prologue Five power amplifier which is a very nice amplifier and rated at 36-Watts.

Most amplifiers that are designed for KT88 power tubes can use EL34 power tubes instead.

The power supply in a PL Five is 50% greater than the PL Four, which was designed for EL 34 power tubes in mind, which helps provide better bass definition.

The one thing that I kept reading about, was the sweet midrange magic of EL power tubes.

Rogue Audio at the time, was using KT88 based amplifiers rather than amplifiers which were based on EL34 output tubes.

Mark O'Brian has stated that KT88's have almost the same midrange magic as EL34's, but have better bass.

After trying some modern day EL34's, I came to the conclusion that the emphasize midrange mainly due to a lack of bass, than having any real midrange magic.

It is important to keep in mind that Altec Lansing A7 speakers have a high sensitivity of around 100 dB. and that they are all about midrange reproduction.

Now I also have an L4 Audio Note Kit amp, which is a very nice EL34 based power amplifier.

Opon a recommendation from the member that I purchased it from, I ordered a quad of NOS RFT EL34 tubes from a German based eBay seller.

I have to admit, I was astounded at the wonderful midrange of the vintage NOS RFT's.

Now this is what I had been reading about. Through the A7's, the vocals took on a natural tone that was almost spooky!

One nice thing about the EL34 tube, is that vintage NOS tubes are not only available but are affordable, where vintage KT88's are anything but affordable.

I only bettered the sound of the L4 by moving to a couple of single ended amplifiers, the LM 518iA, which is truly an endgame amplifier and a 3.9 Watt Decware Mini Torii, which is a lower powered single ended pentode design.

I want to point out that I do not think that going to tubes is the best solution for just any speaker and feel that tubes best benefit highly sensitive horn speakers like the Altec A7's. With most average sensitivity direct radiator's, the laws of diminishing returns fall into play.

Also, some smaller tube amplifiers may not have the power necessary to properly drive many speakers to their full potential.

Although, tube amplifiers that fall into the 30-40 watt range, which is what most of the AB amps are, will power most speakers quite nicely.

In fact, the 30-Watt ANK L4 is a nice alternative to lesser powered single ended amplifiers, because it does have the power to drive speakers that smaller single ended amplifiers do not have.

Driving large 845 power tubes like the LM 518iA, takes a plate voltage of around 1,000 Volts and these power tubes will melt your skin if you come in direct contact with them. They not only look hot, they ARE hot!

Don't discount the fact that smaller power tubes like EL34's are not hot also, they are but nowhere near as hot.

With tubes like EL34's, if you keep your tube cage on your amp, you will not have any issues with the amp burning the hands of small children. Should they touch of the top of the tube cage, they will find it hot and will remove their hands before they will get burned.

 

Very interesting.
Does Willsenton have a website? I couldn't find it. It seems like there is only one site that sells the product and I was looking for distributors. I guess that is not their marketing strategy though.
How do they make something that seems so comparably good for so little?
Thanks for that post and damn you....I now have more research to do on my first jump into tubes.
Was concentrating on PL EVO amps and now you did this to me.
;-)

 

Thank you @SandAndGlass - Thank you for all the research that you have put around these tubes that help new users like me make better decisions. However there is now a twist in the plot, Based on your advice I went back to my LM dealer and yes he does have EL34 based LM34IA and KT88 based LM 88IA amps and he will be setting both of them for audition. His recommendation was the KT88 based LM88IA. He pretty much summed it up the same way you did and Robert the Singapore LM dealer has been dealing with tubes both selling and repairs for almost 4 decades. He mentioned that the LM88IA has the same sweet midrange but it is a newer design (2018) and will do better with harder to drive speakers. He also mentioned that he has upgraded both the amps with Mundorf Power Capacitors, Vishay resistors, Mundorf silver gold oil coupling capacitor, Furutech cryogenic Rhodium AC inlet, etc. I honestly have no idea what he is talking about but I guess it is better than the stock amp. He mentioned the same thing that you said with regards to the heat. The cage will be hot but it cant burn the skin which is a HUGE relief for me and safety was a bigger priority for me than the sound.

I will get back once I hear the two and share my feedback,

@DryWhiteToast - Willsenton R8 KT88/EL34 x4 Tube Integrated Amp Power Amplifier Headphone : China-hifi-Audio online store, Yaqin,Meixing Mingda,XiangSheng,Line Magnetic Tube Amplifier, power amp, preamp,hi-fi CD Player high end audio for sale [MUIA9832268] - $768.68 USD

I believe the only way to get your hands on these if you take the leap of faith and order them from this website. But being in Asia, I can tell you that the quality that you are getting from China is very good. I would think that this is due to the fact that China is manufacturing most of the HiFI for the world anyways. Jay from Audio Excellence Canada, the guy in the above youtube review talks very highly of it. Due to my lack of tube experience, I felt it was important for me to buy an amp locally so that I could also build a relationship with the dealer and learn more about it and get support when needed.

 

I am in total agreement BrownMagic.
I am a tube noob and don't want to buy something without the support of my community when I need them.
I am not knocking the amp but anyways.
Take Care

 

So today I audition the LM88IA and the LM805IA. I carried my old pair of Elac UniFi UB5 so that I use something that I am familiar with.

We started with the LM805IA - It was my first ever tube experience and what I heard from these 500 dollar speakers were something special. I was able to relate to things that was described in reviews and forums. The treble sparkled and the mid range was so good that you could think that the sound was live. The only area where I felt the 805IA didnt do very well was probably the bass. I felt that it was a little wobbly for the lack of a better word. You could say that it was not tight compared to my peachtree nova 300 since I cant compare it with anything else. I would think that it could be due to the fact that my speaker was 85db@4 ohms. When I raised this point with the dealer, he mentioned that the 805IA will work best with something in the 89db and above. I will take his word for that since I could not verify that. The 805IA tubes are big and get hot. I surely could not consider it given my curre

We then moved to the 88IA because that was what I thought would work well for me. We started in the ultra linear mode. We played the same tracks that we played on the 805IA. My first reaction was that this doesnt sound like tube. It sounded like a good solid state. It did most of the things right but that mid range magic was missing. Then we switched the Triode mode and then the sound changed quite a bit. The lushness was back and it sounded a lot creamier like the 805IA but the bass was well controlled. I still think that if matched with the right speaker, the 805IA would be the better sound for me if I had the room and a rack that was child proof.

The 88IA is cheaper, the allrounder and works well with harder to drive speakers. Both the amps played loud enough. The volume was at about 9 o clock and plenty of room to move up so I dont think that it would be an issue for most rooms. I think the 88IA is a great way to get into tubes, get a slice of the SET magic and friendlier option for those with kids and pets. I have paid for the 88IA. The dealer will be upgrading amp and delivery will happen in 10 days.

Thanks everyone for your guidance. I appreciate it. Enjoy the music. Cheers

 

Congrats! Sounds like you’re gonna love it.

 

I noticed that the LM amps have 0, 4, 8 and 16 ohm taps. What does 0 ohm tap do?

Also my speaker is 87/6 ohm. So will 4 ohm tap be the one that I should use?

 

The 0 Ohm tap is the black tap, which is the ground.

One speaker connects to the 0 Ohm tap and the other speaker wire connects to one of the other taps.

You can try them both and use which ever tap sounds best to you.

It will likely be the 4-Ohm tap, but you should give the 8-Ohm tap a shot and compare.

 

Ah ok! That makes sense now. I hope my Tellurium Q black cables which are like a flat cable reach both the taps!

 

Thanks everyone who helped me with your advice. I have started a thread to document my journey on the LM88IA which will help those who are considering the same. Thanks again.

Line Magnetic LM-88IA Integrated Vacuum Tube Amplifier

 

Wow it has been a while. I still have my Line Magnetic 805ia and I love it but I with a baby in the house, I didn't want to waste away the tube life on youtube/netflix and kids tunes. I ended up getting a solid state amp that I opened up yesterday:











I'm not only shocked with the sound but the engineering of this beast. What a beautiful amp.

 

Gorgeous and congratulations! I can only imagine how incredible that Diablo must sound. I guess you decided to stray quite a bit further up the food chain from the likes of Prima Luna???? Admittedly I have not really followed the complete evolution of this thread. That Gryphon is certainly up their among the top integrated amps out there. Enjoy!

 

I thought you posted elsewhere that you had bought a Boulder?! What happened? (Other than an even deeper hole in your pocket).

edit - I see that Boulder wouldn’t sell you an amp from an out-of-state dealer. Interesting.

 

I've tried out a number of amps since this thread and the Line Magnetic bested pretty well all of them. But I can't stand using it for youtube and the like haha. I wanted to get a solid state amp that would not leave me wanting more, one that I can hopefully live with as an end game integrated. It was between this and the Boulder and since Boulder wouldn't sell me one, I went for the Diablo. First impressions are amazing. Wow factor was there as soon as it warmed up. Better than any Luxman or Accuphase that I have heard.

 

Yep, they wouldn't let me work with a dealer that gave me great customer service and said that I needed to buy from another dealer. All this for territory reasons.