Help with first integ. amp - Primaluna v. Rogue v. Line Magnetic v. McIntosh v. Naim

Rogue amps are aimed at those who are looking for a powerful tube amplifier as a replacement for a SS amp. Tube amps like the PL's don't have that tight SS sound that the Rogue amps do, which is why they also use SS rectification for tighter bass. A matter of taste either way, along with your musical tastes. Big strong orchestral sounds are presented well with Rogue amplifier's. Loud tight rock music works better with the Rogue as these do better with plenty of power and HF and LF extension which the CM II with the KT-120 power tubes does provide. Jazz, acoustic, vocals and such are better realized with lower powered tube amps in the power range of 20-40 Watts.

Another comment that I will make, is that the CM with KT-120 tubes runs exclusively in ultralinear mode. The Rogue M-150 monoblocks that I have are each equipped with a quad of KT88's and will run in ultralinear and triode mode. It has been my observation that all class A/B tube amps are really designed for and operate best in ultralinear mode. The more powerful ones like the M-150's do triode mode OK for Jazz, acoustic's, vocals, and that type of music. Just a note. The M-150's are no longer among Rogue's current offerings but if they were, they would be prices at about $5k, as their more powerful KT-120 based M-180's are prices at $6k.

For half the price, I think the CM competes very well with the M-150's, both running in the triode mode. That is saying a lot for an integrated amp competing with monoblocks costing twice as much. It is no wonder that their CM II's are their best selling product. Keep in mind that many of the customer's will be first time buyer's of tube amplifier's and will be coming from powerful SS amplifier's and are used to their sound. Also, these same buyer's will also have speakers which have been designed to be operated with SS amplifier's. So the CM's will be well suited for their applications. Clean, raw tube power.

On any smaller tube amps, stay away from the "triode" modes, as this is more of a marketing thing than anything beneficial. Triode mode in these amps will not make them sound more like SET's, just kink of sloppy and not as refined. The Rogue M-150's do get away with it, to an extent because of their large power supplies and larege output transformers. Many manufacturer's will forgo the triode mode all together. The Decware Torii Jr., the PrimaLuna Prologue Five and the Audio Note Kit Amp's that I have do not even offer triode mode. Older vintage amps that are class A/B from the 60's, all run in the ultralinear mode.

Another thing, most of these tube amps that you are considering do not have strong preamp sections in them and are better off being treated as power amps. of the modern day tube amps that I have, only the CM and the LM are integrated amps, the other's are straight power amps.

Don't discount your Anthem or the fact that it is an AV receiver. I don't particularly care for AV receiver's in general, because most of them really anot not that great as compared to the better sound quality of dedicated "audiophile" type gear. I do consider the Anthem line to be an exception to this.

I would stick to using your Anthem as your system preamplifier and using it's preamp outs to go into a straight power amplifier or one that can be used as either an integrated or as a straight power amp, like the Line Magnetic's, which allow you to use it as an integrated or to use it as a power amp, using the preamp input.

There are those who have the opinion that a hybrid approach is the best facilitated by using a tube preamp or preamp section and a SS power amp or poaer amp section. I do not agree with methodology. I think that it is done more for marketing and selling a product at a certain price point than anything else. Most companies that use this approach use inexpensive preamp sections and Ss power amp sections which are a far less costly approach than using a SS preamp together with a more expensive tube power amp section.

I think that you are better off to continue to use your Anthem exactly the same way as you are using it now. As a surround sound decoder, system input selector and as a system preamp. You can take your preamp outputs from your Anthem and use it to power an external tube power amp. You can still do this if you do buy a tube integrated. You are going to find that the output from your anthem will be fine going into the line level input on a tube integrated amp. You can just set the volume level of your integrated amp at one point and then control everything else with the volume control on your Anthem.

You have another advantage to running everything through your Anthem. That being, you can use it's bass management features to route you regular stereo signal out the LFE channel. This way you can continue to use your sub with both HT and your 2-channel stereo. This is essentially what I do. The difference with me, is that I have a separate surround sound processor that I use for HT. But I run a cable from my stereo preamp section into a unused input on the processor and have the processor send everything from the stereo signal that is 40-Hz. and below through the LFE channel out to the sub, just the same way I do when decoding 5.1 channel surround sound.

Continue to use your Anthem to power your center and rear channels.

I really see no particular need to make the expenditure on a McIntosh SS amplifier, as I don't feel that it will give you the benefit that going with a tube amplifier will.

I did want to comment, that I have the 22-Watt 845 powered LM 518iA and not the twice as powerful 508iA.

This is why I am suggesting that you give the 36-Watt PL Prologue Five a try as the main power amp for your system, driven by your Anthem as a preamp.

If you find that you want a much more powerful amplifier that will offer you more speed, power and control, than you might be better off considering the CM II. If the power is about right, and you do want a bit more power and more dynamics, then consider the 5081A. But, it you feel that the Five has plenty of power that you are not even using, then you might consider the 22-Watt 518iA (or the new model 845iA), instead.

In either case, you can run it using the preamp input, coming off of you Anthem directly or still using your Anthem, running it configured as one of the three line level inputs. I am not of the opinion that the preamp section of the 518iA (I have not heard the 508iA), is anything to write home about.

I have a separate dedicated tube preamp that I use to run the 518iA bypassing its preamp section. Having tried it both ways, using it as a straight power amp is my preference. Again, use your existing Anthem as your system source selector and main system preamp.

Sine you already have the Anthem, it is only a matter of trying out what I have suggested. If it does not work out to your satisfaction, unplug the cables and wire the system to your liking.

No normal tube integrated's and tube power amplifier's do not usually have a HT bypass. If you hook up you Anthem as I have suggested in my above paragraph, you will find that there is no need to do this.

Just my thoughts. I do think that either of the Line Magnetic's would be your best end game solution. You are just going to need to go through these steps to better understand tube amplification and what it may bring to the table for you, BEFORE spending a whole lot of money and investing in these expensive integrated amplifiers, if they are not work perfectly for your preferences.

 

I started wondering where I would begin to look for a electrician to do that sort of work but remembered there's a tube guitar amp production line a two minute walk away from my desk. wish i were kidding...

 

Moved from a Cronus Magnum I to a Primaluna Dialogue Premium int. and couldn't be happier.
I have heard the Line Magnetic and would have gotten that , but I got a cracking deal on the Primaluna.

Best of luck.
mdr

 

PrimaLuna amps are very easy on tubes, as specially power tubes, they don't rum them hard at all. PL is one of your best bets for an amp with a long tube life.

 

I don't think it is an honest statement claiming that high powered amps are good for this and low powered tube amps are for that. Certainly different power tubes can have different characteristics and running triode vs ultralinear will yield sonic differences. Running el 34 at 40 watts ultralinear vs 80 watts ultralinear should sound the same with whatever music that you like assuming that you are driving your speakers adequately.

 

Any electrician can do this. It's not a specialty. Any single electrician can do this. Just make sure you have two 120V circuits on your panel that are free. Otherwise, you'll need to have a side panel installed. Assuming you do, once the amp is at your place, you'll see the end of the power cord that the electrician will know which socket to install so it physically fits.

 

oh *on the wall*. i thought you meant on the amp. sorry for the thread derail

on topic: i sold my 518ia because I was having a child and was worried about curious little fingers. I highly recommend the Line Magnetic amps. They are the best I've had in my system.

I think I'm going to try the 211ia just to see how it compares, as my room as pretty terrible acoustically.

 

I agree, I'd rather have a dedicated socket than a transformer. I'm curious though, is it not possible to convert the unit itself to 120v? Most higher end gear has that capability.

 

You got a problem with high prices and poor service? So picky you are.

 

No worries. I guess I could've been less ambiguous.

The power transformer itself works at that voltage. You can't really modify it per se. To do so, you'd need to replace the transformer with a 120V one. A big part of the sound the LM amps have has to do with the transformers. I wouldn't dare get another (most likely inferior) transformer which would cost a ton and pay somebody to replace it. It's a time-consuming effort and would be quite expensive. Even though it's possible to convert, there would be no real point in doing so. Might as well buy something else, IMHO.

My old Arcam does have a switch in the back to toggle between 120V and 240V but the LM amps do not have such a switch. So you're stuck with whatever flavor you bought.

 

Yeah, all of my correspondence with Tone Imports has been answered immediately by the owner. I'm not sure what the problem would be besides long wait times for esoteric brands, which is just par for the course.

 

I'm aware, I'm just trying to figure out from a long term owner how long the tubes actually last. Just from my use and their spec, I'm figuring retubing every 2-3 years.

 

They don't!

 

Most modern day large power tubes have an average life of around 2,000 hours. They can be more or less. I'm speaking of tubes kike KT88's, 6550's, EL34's, KT66 and KT77's.

NOS tubes are likely to last longer. You can still buy quad's of RFT EL34's from Germany for under $300/quad. Your small signal tubes can last 5,000 - 10,000 hours, maybe more. They are about the only "affordable" large power tubes.

If you are considering a 35-36 Watt tube amp, the PrimaLuna is going to be one of your best bets, as far as tube longevity goes.

Most modern amps have soft start circuitry, but companies like Rogue really push their tubes to get the most power out of them, making their lives shorter. Companies who use KT88's and EL34's, like PrimaLuna and others who will run a quad of power tubes in the 30-36 Watt range, will realize longer tube life.

The problem with tubes and modern tubes in particular, have numerous quality control issues, not to mention that they have internal design differences than the original tubes and do manufacture them with the same quality parts as the original tubes were manufactured.

Meaning that tubes can and will crap out at any time, just nobody knows quite when. If you are going to get in the tube game, that is something that you should be familiar with from the beginning. You should be prepared to have another set of back up power tubes on hand. With PL, you don't have to worry about having to worry about having matched pairs or matched quads, due to the Adaptive Autobias feature, but if you order your spare set, at the time that you buy your new amp, you could probably get a set that is the same match as your first set. Even the, you don't really have to have a spare quad on hand, a couple of tubes would work. But, I find that I am usually happier having tubes in the amp that are as colse to the same age as possible.

If you have a power tube go out on you, relatively early in the game, then just remove and replace it with a new one and buy another new one so you have four spares on hand again.

Once you get 500 or more hours on a set and one goes out. I would recommend that you pull the entire quad out, discard the bad tube and put your new back up quad in place of the originals. You now have three perfectly operational but now somewhat used tubes to keep on hand, should any tubes begin to fail, from your new batch. You can now replace three bad tubes before you put another new quad back in.

Since the small signal tubes last a long time, you can get way with only having one of each tube on hand to replace another one, it it should become defective. While you don't really have to match these tubes, it is desirable to have matched sets, so that they should not have volume differences.

 

They do.

 

The only thing to keep in mind with the DiaLogue HP is that it uses an octet, not a quad.

This isn't my first tube amp (far from it) and I'm hoping that I won't be doing annual output tube changes as in the past.

 

So... big day today. I went to a semi-local hifi shop called Gig Harbor Audio because they sell Line Magnetic and Rogue Audio. Ended up listening to the Line Magnetic and was instantly impressed. Heard both the 805ia and the 518ia. The sound had such presence yet retained clarity and just seemed to make everything else disappear. Gig Harbor Audio was so kind as to lend me the 805ia to take home and test with my speakers so I did not pass up the chance. What customer service! It was probably one of the best customer service experiences that I can recall in recent memory.

Anyway, this thing weighs a ton! I'm looking forward to listening to these with my Ascend towers to hear how much of an impact this amp has on my system. I'll be reporting back but needless to say, I am stoked.

 

Go McIntosh or Primaluna for the money. I like both, they're equally good choices. Line Magnetic is also nice. Glad to see your Line Magnetic dealer give you such amazing customer service.

 

I didn't realize which amp you were purchasing. I have a pair of monoblock's myself, so I buy tubes for it a octet at a time. Rogue more modern designs are not as hard on tubes as their older designs. Today, you bias each tube individually so you set the proper current for each tube, which is easier on the tubes then their old way. Previous to the M-150's, I had their M-120's. You did not bias them as they used a cathode bias method, which, in effect, took an average of the bias of all four tubes in each monoblock. With cathode bias, no tube is ever correctly biased individually, which makes the tubes run even harder. The amount heat coming off of those tubes was terrible!

Compare, the M-150 with an octet of tubes, would run 150-WPC with KT88's. The same PrimaLuna with an octet for each channel would run about 72-WPC.

From Upscale Audio's web page on the Dialogue Premium:

"Tube life is simply a matter of how hard you run the tubes. That’s it. The only way to extend tube life is to run them as close to zero as you possible can, making sure it is not so low you go into crossover distortion. The life of a tube will depend on two things: Plate and screen voltage.

If the plate and screen voltage is high, you are more likely to get tube shorts when you turn the amp on and you get cathode stripping which greatly effects the cathodes ability to spit out electrons. Manufacturers that run the hell out of tubes to pump up their power ratings will never tell you what voltages they use. They’ll say it’s “proprietary” as if it’s some secret sauce. There is no such thing. But if they told you that they used 575, 600, or even 625 volts you probably wouldn’t buy. We proudly tell you our tubes run at just about 417 volts for the plates and screens.

PrimaLuna runs their output tubes at a minimum dissipation without going into crossover distortion. When you look at our amps, they provide less power from each tube. With KT-120’s as an example, a PrimaLuna will give you only 21 watts per tube. So running a pair of them you get 42 watts. That’s a lot of power, but the demands per tube are a fraction of some manufacturers that give you 100 watts from a pair of KT-120’s. It’s a cheap way to get big power, and it’s cheap. In fact, free. To get more power the right way is expensive. It requires bigger transformers, sockets, wiring, resistors, capacitors, and the tubes to do it. Which is exactly what PrimaLuna did. But we didn’t stop there.

After I had my M-150's, I acquired an Original Cronos Magnum with M-120 power tubes, to have as a back-up, in case one of the monoblocks needed to be shipped back for repair. Later, I bought a Stereo-90, which uses a quad of KT88's off of eBay. I bought it, so that I did not have to be burning two quad's of KT88's every time I lit up the amplifier. Although it sounded like the monoblock's, I could not use it to run the A7's because of the excess hum, so I pulled it out to the side, pending repair for service.

My reasons for downsizing had nothing to do with sound quality, but to reduce the operational expenses of tubes! So, I get where you are coming from.

I have nine other tube amps and the most powerful one of those is the PL Prologue Five, at 36-Watts. I have very high efficiency speakers and as such, I simply do not require that much power to run them. The smallest amplifier I use to power them is a Decware Mini Torii, which is a single ended 6V6 pentode and is rated at 3.9-WPC. While you can't reach rock concert levels with it, it will do a moderately loud room filling volume, before starting to softly distort.

I ran the Five with KT88's for about nine months solid with the A7's and now have it hooked up to the Zu's, I bought it the summer before last. Still have all the original tubes in it.

With the M-150's, I was replacing two quad's every year, OUCH!

With my speakers, I'm finding that I would never need more than 22-Watts of power to drive them as loud a I would ever want to. For most people, who have less efficient speakers, the Five, with its 36-Watts, would usually be enough.

Your Dialogue will be much nicer on you tubes than your previous amps were.

 

So glad you found them!.....I was just going to post that since you are in WA you should head over to Gig to take a listen to one of the LM options.

 

I'm going to guess you do NOT avoid it. I doubt the Primaluna has any provision at all for cutting the bass out of the mains. You can ask Upscale to be sure; I've never seen any main-in connections on their integrateds though I'd love to be wrong. Now if you got an amp, with a separate pre, that's a different story. (Meanwhile, you could run your towers stereo for music, and 5.1 for theater, that would work).

 

The 508IA is version 1.0 of your amp. The differences are quite small so I'm curious to know how you like it.

 

Mee too!

 

First night with the 805ia was last night. Listened to numerous tracks via Tidal streamed through the AppleTV which is connected to the Oppo 105D as my Dac. This amp is SO musical. Words I would use to describe the sound production is that it is full of life and is so vibrant and clear. I felt like I could go higher and higher (got only about 40% of the way through the volume knob) and I only enjoyed the music more. I did not feel any fatigue listening to this amp at all. My speakers don't have a great low end so I'm not getting much punch (plus I may have gotten used to having the 3.1 setup via my Anthem) but I didn't find myself feeling too bothered - at least that was last night. It sounds like there may be a way for me to connect the sub to the speaker outputs but I'll have to get some more speaker cables without the banana plugs to do so.

Also, wow - this amp is a looker. Retro yet modern. Looks amazing in the dim lighting that I have in the living room during the evening.