Help with first integ. amp - Primaluna v. Rogue v. Line Magnetic v. McIntosh v. Naim

Yeah the same ALPS pot was on $699 Audio Note preamps though so I sort of expect better in a $4,000 made in China integrated from PrimaLuna. $50 isn't what manufacturers pay.

I didn't really get into the Prima Luna sound which is why I largely left them out of my discussion. I'm not that big into some of their so-called inventions - all Audio Note amps push pull or tube are all auto-bias and always have been (years before PL was even a company) - no need to run around advertising auto-bias when it was around 2 decades before you invented it. And the tubes last a Long time in AN amps too. 8000 to 100,000 hours depending what product you buy. So this isn't exactly a major selling feature. I replaced one preamp tube at $8 in my OTO since 2003.

Though I prefer not having to bias - so that is definitely a plus in favor of the Prima Luna over LM or Rogue - but when we start getting into $4500 for an integrated amp - the Audio Note OTO and SORO enter into the picture (and Cary and Leben and even a Shindo preamp mated to a cheaper power amp) and while boring as F to look at compared to the Chinese bling amps is where I would go over the PL, Rogue or LM. But no remote control and no pre-in and lower power (Soro has 18 watts the OTO 10 watts). So less ideal with his speakers.

My first choice for sound quality in general are Single Ended amplifiers - but they tend to lack power and features.

The appeal of the Chinese amps to me is the cost saving - at $1600-$2000 they fill a market where the Euro and US amps struggle but at the upper price ranges the superior designers (not just copiers) and better parts quality become factors.

Personally - for this sort of cash - $4500 or so he could buy an Audio Note M1 preamp (which will be vastly better as a preamp than the preamp in ANY of these integrated amps for around $2200 and then would be able to buy a pretty excellent power amp from Triode Labs (made by LM) or for that matter a the Atlas Magnum II Power amp from Rogue which gives him the big power ($1900) but the better preamplifier sound from AN.

I would never again spend $4k on integrated amps and their limitations. With the separates he has far better upgrade paths and for less money than some of these integrated he will get considerably better sound quality and flexibility.

AN M Zero or M1 preamp OR Shindo Aurieges ($3k)
Power amps from Prima Luna Prologue premium $2200, Rogue Atlas M2 ($1900), Triode Labs(made by Line Magnetic) or Melody Valve Audio

Shindo Aurieges


Audio Note M1


Prima Luna Stereo power amplifier


Rogue Atlas Magnum II



Indeed, it also allows the OP to buy different power amps - so he could get the MC275 from McIntosh or use SS amps - he can listen to big music at big level with say a Bryston Power amp - and then switch over to tube power amps. Far more options. The only disadvantage to separates is that you need another outlet and some cables (and space).

 

Without having heard any other tubes on the Primaluna, it does make me wonder what the KT150's would sound like and how much it would differ compared to the EL34's. At moderate listening levels, would it increase clarity (ability to pick out little details, increase separation and nuances) and would it provide more impact versus the stock EL34's? Spending an additional $800 on KT150's would bring the amp to approximately the price of the LM 805ia new. Makes me wonder if the correct comparison is actually Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP with KT150's vs the LM 805ia.

 

I have a PL Prologue Five with KT88's. I have been recommending them to forum member's for more than a year. And they have been running the A7's for 2/3 of a year and are now running the Zu, Omen Definition's.

I have spoken many times about the PL's and their Adaptive Autobias feature. I have no particular fondness for manually biasing tubes.

Doing a search on my posts and "Prologue"

Search Results for Query: prologue

Will yield you four pages of search results.

I understand that the PL doesn't run tubes hard and for that reason tubes will/should last a lot longer. I can't say, because I have not replaced them yet.

The Five is rated at 36-Watts. My Rogue M-150 monoblock's have four KT88's in each amp that produces 150-Watts. Then two tubes will produce 75-Watts, which is about twice what two power tubes in the Five produce.

So yes, the Rogue runs their KT88's twice as hard as the PL does. But, in doing so, the Rogue is a lot more dynamic and hard hitting than the PL.

That is neither a bad thing nor a good thing, it is just a thing. A buyer of a Rogue amp is not looking for 300B SET sweetness, that buyer is looking for a powerful tube amp that will replace a SS amp and bring the goodness of tubes into play.

Also, I haven't nominated Rogue for sainthood. I have had a tube fail in one monoblock a year after I upgraded my M-120's to M-150's and it did take out a resistor. I remember full well packing up a 150-lb. monoblock amp getting it in my trunk, out again at FedEx, and hauling in the 62-lb. box and sending it on its way to Brodheadsville, PA. I forget the actual shipping amount, but I remember handing over four, twenty dollar bills to the cashier and not receiving much back, in the way of change.

The reason that I bought the KT88 based Stereo 90, was because I saw no reason to be burning two quads of KK88's every time I lit up the A7's. I bought it used and had to pull it out of the system due to excess hum. The 90 was not a monoblock and had two pair of KT88's, half the amount of power tubes as the M-150's.

The reasoning behind me buying the Five in the first place, was that it put out half the power and would give me a longer expected tube life and reduce maintenance and operating expenses.

I started using smaller wattage amplifier's because of the desire to save money, no other reason.

The DiaLogue's with there twice the number of tubes provide about twice the power of the Prologue series. Yes they also are stressed less, because they are not maxed out like the Rogue's, which might put out twice the power than them.

I don't think that you can generalize about tubes. A lot depends on new vs. vintage, who manufactured the tube? EL34's are known for their midrange but not for their strong bass. KT88's have a lot of the midrange of the EL34's but more bass.

I find that the KT88's in the Five, age generally like my description of the KT88's.

I'm afraid that I do not understand this statement at all. You are saying the you understand that it sounds best with KT-120's and 150's and that you might give one or the other a try. But since you don't normally love the EL34, you are not in a rush to try either the KT-120 or the KT-150.

I'm not understanding what your feelings or lack thereof for the EL4 have to do with the sound of the KT-120 or the KT-150?

It still all comes down to the amount of power that you need, how the amp sounds with the speakers that you are using.

I have found that I can run the A7's with my little 3.9-Watt Decware amp. with plenty of power and excellent dynamic's for every day use.

If I really want to turn up the volume and have excellent sound and excellent dynamic's, then the LM 518iA has enough class "A" power to do the job.

In any event, all of the other tube amps, other than the Rogue's have power between 20 and 40 watts, which is all that I would ever really need.

If I really do want to put on a full blown rock concert, then there are always the Rogue's or the Crown's.

 

I think that the LM 211 is a nice sounding integrated overall. It has enough power to drive most speakers that are going to be in the 88-90 dB range. I have a quad of KT77's in mine and I think that it is a nice sounding integrated, but there is not a preamp bypass section on it. I already have a preamp in the system that I am not going to remove. Having this extra preamp is not what brings the SQ down when dealing with an integrated, it is the preamp section in the integrated.

Someone who is looking for a single integrated, rather than separates, would be hard pressed to do better than the LM 211iA. There is really no negatives about it. It is built well and it is nice sounding.

The AN Kit L4 Kit amp is the best of my amps before moving to class "A". It is an EL34 amp, with better bass and better bass definition than the PL Five that I had been using before it. The Five has KT88's in it, which I am fond of in modern day amps.

Since I have a preamp, the L4 with the NOS EL34's is my best sounding class A/B PP tube amp. It is a straight power amp, so there is nothing in the way of the my external preamp.

Truthfully, I was completely happy with the PL Five, until the ANK L4 came along. The MOS tubes are RFT's from Europe and they have better bass than the KT88 do in the PL. This is something that has me blindsided. I never particularly cared for modern day production EL34's and I still don't have any particular love for them.

They have a midrange, but it does either seem to be somewhat muted or has a bit of a glare to it that the NOS EL34's don't have. Their midrange is spot on.

But, let's face it, while the EL34 is known for its magical midrange, it has never been known for its bass. If it were, than KT88's would have never been invented.

The EL34 based ANK L4 with the NOS tubes, has better bass than the PL Five with KT88's. I know that I keep saying this, but you would never expect an EL34 to best a KT88 in the bass department.

With three amps in the 30-Watt range, I would rate them in this order. The ANK L4, the LM 211iA and the PL Five.

Although I could easily live with any of the three. They all sound excellent, just different.

With the PL Five being discontinued in favor of the premium. Upscale Audio has been clearing out the PL Five's for $1,100. This is the best deal on the planet for a brand name 36-Watt KT88 tube power amplifier.

They also are closing out the stock of EL34 based Four's for about $200 less.

I had been using the 518iA as a power amplifier, bypassing the preamp since I received it and was blown away by the sound. I switched over to the preamp input and came away far less impressed. I hadn't expected much of a difference, but, as you say, there is a big difference!

Yes.

That is the issue with the CM (I have the CM I), you cannot bypass the preamp section. So in that respect, I would rather have the Atlas Magnum, using it with an external preamp.

However, those who want a one box solution, the CM is a good choice.

If you are looking in that $2,500 range, the LM 211iA would be for Eva Cassidy and the Rogue CM would be for a Steppenwolf rock concert.

The PL stuff would be more in the middle and would work a bit with either.

For class a SET with power, the 511iA works. If you need even more power to bring out greater dynamics, which many speaker's might benifit from, then the LM 508iA, might fill the ticket.

If you need even more power and slam, then go Rogue.

If you don't have a separate preamp, then I would go for the CM. If you have a separate preamp, then I would go for the Stereo 100.

If yoy don't have a tube preamp, then I think that a SS preamp and a Stereo 100 would be a fine combination.

I would much rather have a SS preamp and a tube power amp stage, than the other way around.

The really big factor in how you can configure your system amp wise, is having high efficiency speakers. They allow you a choice to use any amp that has a sound signature that works for you and your music.

With all these amps that I have been working with over the past five years, right now, I'm enjoying the little 3.9-Watt Decware, since I took out the JJ's and put in the $45/pr. Tung Sol's.

I want to look further into some 50's vintage 6V6's. I have a feeling that may prove to be even more interesting yet.

 

Not sure about the increase in clarity but possibly so. The KT120 and 150 made by Tung Sol are very transparent sounding tubes. It would also be dependent on your small signal tubes.

 

I asked Rogue about using the CMII as a preamp and the reply was to remove the power tubes and use the subwoofer out jacks. I tried it with a solid state power amp I have and it did work well. Not the most elegant solution though...

 

I would not do that either.

I would use a decent SS preamp into a Rogue power amp.

I was considering to send my CM I to Rogue to have a preamp bypass option installed, so it could be used like the Atlas power amp. Which is what the CM starts out with, before adding the additional circuitry to make it into an Integrated.

When I first bought my Rogue M-120 monoblock's, I did not have a tube preamp. I used the output of the Peachtree Nova' class "A" SS preamp to drive the KT-88 monoblock's. They sounded excellent being driven by the Nova. I have since, upgraded to the iNova.

Still everything in the system is routed into the iNova, so that way, I have a central point of control for all four systems in the room. The iNova acts as the source selector, the system DAC, as all digital sources are used as a transport into the Saber DAC in the iNova. Then the signal is routed into the iNova's class "A" preamp. I don't use the iNova's internal power amplifier, execting to use the iNova's preamp output to run all of the External power amps.



The exception to this, it the external tube preamp. There is also a line level out from the iNova that is not controlled by the iNova's volume control and that is run into the Cary Audio's Constellation 6SN7 tube preamp, which goes into which ever tube integrated or power amp that is driving the vintage Altec A7's.



So, to this day, all sources that go into the tube preamp, go through the iNova SS preamp first.

There is an RCA analog switch box that switches between the two system turntable phono preamps. I have installed a "Y" splitter after the RCA switch box. One leg goes into the iNova and the other leg goes into a second input on the Constellation, to that the phono pre's can be routed directly into the Constellation without going through the iNova.

Because the Constellation preamp sits directly behind me, I have installed a wired analog volume control knob, which is seen hanging over the rear of the sofa in the first photo. It controls the volume level between the Constellation and the tube power amp.

Before I acquired the Constellation tube preamp, I used the iNova directly into the Rogue Monoblock's.

You can get excellent results running a SS preamp and a tube power amp.

 

Wanted to give an update on where I am...

I have had the Primaluna for a little more than a week and during that time, I have the following thoughts.

• Warmth and overall sonic impressions - This is a stellar, stellar amp that sounds pretty fantastic after about 60 hours of playing time. The midrange comes through loud and clear - more pronounced than the Line Magnetic in a way. Great dynamics and impact was felt in tracks that were more fast paced such as those by Lindsey Stirling.
• Features - The HT Bypass and Sub out makes it so easy to integrate this amp with the 3.1 setup that I have. I have not found myself using the headphone amp at all though to my surprise. I thought this would be one of the selling features of this amp for me but given this sits in the living room, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised here.
• Ease of Setup - This is an amp that is very simple to plug and play and get going. Features available such as the autobias, HT bypass, sub out, and headphone amp make this an integrated that serves many purposes. The ability to switch between ultra linear and triode mode was interesting but was not as much of a difference maker as I expected.
• Looks - I think this is one of the sexiest amps out there to look at. More so than most tube amps or solid state units out there.

While I have enjoyed the time spent with the Primaluna, I went back to Gig Harbor Audio and bought the Line Magnetic 805ia. Why? There was something special about the Line Magnetic. The musicality was different... that difference was capable of putting a smile on my face. On a few occasions I would be listening to a track such as Tsuyoshi Yamamoto's Misty or Midnight Sugar, I would catch myself thinking, this is exactly how I wanted this to sound. My wife commented that during certain orchestral tracks, the sound of the horn and the piano would be accentuated in just the right ways with the Line Magnetic. The sound produced by the press of the piano key and the rate of decay was as the music should sound, she said. The Primaluna by contrast was great but she commented that the Primaluna sounded faster and more controlled - notes would come and go, almost too quickly. Very happy with the Line Magnetic (even fresh out of the box). Thanks to everyone for their help on this thread. I would not have even thought about the various tube options if not for this community.

 

When I demo my system to new visitors, I start off with regular full range normal music. Everything is there everything seems normal and balanced, you are not aware of the large commercial sub in the system.

Then I will throw up a Chromecast Video of Lindsey, whom I have been watching and sharing with others since about 2012.

I will bring up Crystallize - Lindsey Stirling (Dubstep Violin Original Song) on YouTube.

Where this video really excels, is that its primary instrument, of course, is the violin, which has no bass at all. I make sure that the volume level is at a comfortable level for the violin. Then the Dubstep bass comes in and the sub goes from being invisible to making its presence known by pressurizing the room with strong deep bass. You really have to have a serious sub to appreciate what is going on with this number.

If you don't have a serious sub, you will hear the bass and think, OK, there is bass here. But with a serious sub, the bass about knocks you over!



When you are in your environment and there is great music playing through speakers, you never want to reach for the headphones.

The Ultralinear and Triode modes are a marketing feature more than anything else. What it means is that instead of using your amps power tubes as pentodes or beam tetrodes, you are loosing half the power and control and using the power tube as a simple triode. The problem is, the amp is still a class A/B amp, which is really designed to operate in ultralinear mode, as that is that mode that class A/B amps are intended to operate in.

This does not mean that they are operating as a class "A", SET (Single Ended Triode). They are still just a class A/B amp where the power tubes are no longer using their pentode advantage.

Many quality class A/B amps, do not even offer a triode mode, but operate as an ultralinear amp 100% of the time.

Just wanted to throw that in.

The LM 508iA IS a real class "A" SET and that is why it sounds like it does.

The reason that you picked the 508, and I knew that you would, in the end, is that it sounds real.

Nuff said?

 

Personally - I think LM sounds better than Prima Luna - perhaps due to the topology. And I believe you can use it as a power amp (prein no?) So when the time comes you may be surprised how much better it can sound when using it just as a power amp. I would have kept my 219IA but it was just too big and heavy and too much of a pain in the butt to ship from HK to Canada (and the transformers are not multi-voltage). As a SET guy I am actually hoping that LM comes out with 2a3 monoblocks down the line (and keeping the price down) and then I'll look very hard at them. Right now they are mostly focused on the big power output.

 

Since you will be in the America's, I really do suggest that you look into the Decware offerings. I have three of their amps and I have to say that they really sound nice.

I changed out a burned out tube on a little Decware 3.9-Watt 6V6GT based Mini Torii, after the tube burned in a while, I sat dumbfounded! I had the aml sitting on the back shelf for a while. I decided to get it out and have a listen,when I discovered that one of the JJ power tubes was out. I found a pair of new manufacture $45/pr. Tung Sol's and pulled out the JJ's and stuck the Tung Sol's in their place.

I liked this little amp and thought that it was a nice sounding little amp, but that was about it.

When I first switched out the tubes, I had forgotten that I had done that. As I was listening to the amp, it was somewhat "thinner" than I remembered it being, but I thought, it might be the streaming music that was playing, what the heck?

A couple of hours later, I was looking at the A7's and shaking my head.

Now, with 3.9-Watts, and this is a dual mono design, you don't expect any real volume or dynamics, you would expect more of a, as you have said about 3ooB's, a "ladies amp". Compared to the 519iA or the 519 or 508.

Now, I had considered the 518 with an external preamp and running with my modified A7's to be pretty much end game for me, not expecting to really ever hear better.

And this stupid little amp, which I bought for about half price on eBay was literally blowing me away.

I put the 518 on the shelf and have been listening to the Mini Torii since then, for the last several days and it has not let me down.

Now, this amp is a single ended pentode design, which I never heard of not do I pretend to understand, but it just works!

It is voltage regulated.

Not only does it sound good, but...

Even given the high efficiency of the A7's, it plays loud. Not rock concert level, to be sure, but it plays much louder than you would ever think is possible, for such a little amp.

The mid's are to die for.

There is articulate detail but no harshness.

It is very dynamic and it produces stupid deep strong bass, with the A7's.

Now the A7's without subs are generally regarded as flat sounding speakers, nothing exciting. They are not really known, despite the size of their cabinets, for strong bass. Although, if you play a Grand Funk Railroad album with a Rogue tube amp or the 250-SS amp,you can get the bass kicking.

The -3 dB point is about 47-Hz. but, of course, they do play lower.

Now the A7's have been modded with custom crossover's, JBL super-tweeters and to give the system bass I have a commercial horn load passive 15" sub cabinet, which is powered by a 1,600 Watt Crown commercial amplifier.

So, I have figured out how to get as much deep powerful bass as I want. But this is what I went through to get it.

There is no rational way, that that this amp should be dynamic and produce deep strong bass, but it does?

It makes no sense to me.

Now as I sit here writing this, A Sara Bareilles song, I Choose You, has started playing on Pandora. I paused it at 49-seconds till I got to here.

This song has some spooky bass, where you hear the strings being distinctly plucked, at least that is what is sounds like to me. The effect is so distinct that it seems percussive. I don't have the dB meter here or I would measure it in both the A and the C scale. The vocal's are not really that loud, but the sub is off and the base is kicking through the 828 bass cabinet of the A7's.

MY BAD! I just realized that the rear amp was turned up a bit. There is a large Polk wireless sub that is connected by the rear speaker's, which can also play in the stereo mode. It is a 12" downward firing sub with a 400-Watt amp, and it plays down to 25-Hz. at its -3 dB point.

But still this is a great sounding little amp and it is only a $2,200 amp (before options).

Decware has recently released their 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Anniversary Amp, it is stereo and 2-WPC and $3,295.

I have two Decware power amps and one ZP3 phono pre. These are stupid good not stupid expensive.



When you get back to our northern hemisphere, you can stop by and visit Decware and listen for your self.

You can also contact member @Lonson, who has one of these amplifier's and has been a Decware customer for twenty years.

Besides, when you get away from HK, you might find yourself a larger crib once your are back here and you can have some real high efficiency speaker's built to your specifications, that will allow you to use these flea watt SET amps and still give you dynamics that you are not going to have with smaller speakers. I think you would be very pleased with having horn speakers. They do wonderful things for vocal's.

Of course, I can use the Mini Torii as my every day amp, but if I really want to jack up the A7's, I would need to put the 518's back into the system.

Before these two amps, the ANK L4 with the RFT NOS EL34's was my best sounding amp, by far. It still remains a viable option.

For the OP, the 508 remains a better option because his speakers are not as efficient as the A7's, so the extra power that the 508 has over the 518 comes into play.

 

@freesole I'm glad you found an amp you are happy with.

@SandAndGlass Regarding the ultralinear/triode mode- you can't make a blanket statement that it's marketing. With the PrimaLuna, I'm finding that it almost works like a loudness button, ultralinear at low volumes, triode at louder levels. I know it makes no sense to cut the power as the volume is raised, but it works. It can also take the edge off of hot recordings. It's subtle though.

Listen to a Manley Mahi (or actually a pair) and the difference between ultralinear and triode is night as day.

 

For every thing that is a general condition, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule.

It really is mostly marketing. Class A/B amplifier's by design run in the ultralinear mode. Of course, they can be made to do other things, but when you do there are mostly compromises. When you design an A/B amp. the transformer's are optimally designed to operate with specific tubes. While you can roll different tubes in them, it is not just the tube that is making a different sound, it is a different tube along with that specific transformer.

You run in triode mode, you are introducing another transformer/tube change.

When you look at high end amplifier's like Audio Note, when they design an amplifier to run EL34 tubes, they mean run EL34 tubes, not KT88's. They build their amplifier's to run only in ultralinear mode for a reason.

Running in triode mode can take the edge of things. The problem is they often do more than that. When you are looking at the lower powered amplifier's like the Prologue series (I have a Prologue Five) they are in the same power range as the Audio Note Kit Amp L4, which I also have. Both amps run exclusively in the UL mode. There is a reason for that.

When you have more powerful amps, there is enough power to make the ultralinear/triode thing somewhat workable. With the UL mode being better for big music like an orchestra or rock concert, while the triode mode being better for jazz or acoustic or vocals, being more soft around the edges.

It is more the amp changing characteristics and certain music may work better with one while certain music will work better with another.

Changing from UL to triode will change the linear response to be less linear, which takes the edge off and therefor may "tame" certain harsh or digital music with an edge on it. But with an A/B amp, you are changing the basic sonic signature of the amp.

This response is curve is different than running a pure class "A" SET amp. which does not put up a filter to reproduce the music through. The music with a SET comes through very natural sounding, not altered, no mandatory feedback.

 

Will I hope to be back in Canada 10 years from now depending on the world market over the next several years and what the Canadian dollar does.

Right now my main amplifier (and probably final amplifier) will be the Audio Note Empress 2a3 monoblocks - but Audio Note has recently had major price hikes - 12% or something in September and then again in October. But not everything. So we shall see - there are three versions of the Empress - I want the top of the line model of course. 211 is too big hot and expensive to run.

 

Well, don't keep us in suspense. What was the rest of the system?

I am also in the market for a Tube preamp, as my RP-1 sounds great, but has issues with a high frequency ringing, which sounds similar to wine glasses that have clanked. This causes me to have to reset the preamp every hour or so, which solves the problem, but I find it pretty annoying to have to continually reset it.

Unfortunate, because the RP1 was pretty affordable used and sounds great in my system. I've read about the Stereo 100 and was interested in pairing it with my RP1. Just not sure the Stereo 100 can handle my power hungry B&W 804's and they need some serious power to produce satisfying bass. Been browsing Audio Research tube preamps on the used market.

Great thread by the way. You have some great choices in your original list @freesole . Ones I've considered and am curious to follow your path.

 

When you had spoken of moving back to Canada, I had not realized that you were still ten years out.

I was undrer the impression that you got rid of yoyr LM 519's, that was because they were not 120-Volt models and would be too heavy and difficult to move back to Canada and worry about doing the voltage conversion.

 

The system had the Rogue RP-5 preamp feeding the Stereo 100 being driven by the Sony HAP-Z1ES server and playing into Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers. Unbelievable.

Have you isolated your issue to the RP-1? Possibly a tube?

 

I did some more reading and apparently some Rogue Preamps (and Conrad Johnson) aren't friendly with some older tubes like my RCA's. Upscale audio addresses this in some of their Tube ads. I ordered a pair of these guys: I wanted to order some Mullards but just couldn't stomach the extra $90 for the pair.

brimar-cv4003-12au7

If you are curious here was a thread I found about it:

whistling-tube-12au7.744323

Sorry for the hi-jack.

 

The Prima Luna is a total winner. I've heard the Rogue and the Line (I think). PL just has everything at a reasonable price.

Got mine as a store demo for $2800. Look around, they're out there

 

According to Upscale, Rogues are very hard on preamp tubes. My Pharoah would make the tubes whistle (low volume but easily heard with headphones) when the tubes were on the way out.

 

Part of it was because I didn't want to lug it back to Canada and part of it was auditioning the Kingko amplifier in direct comparison and then also having a fellow who really wanted the 219IA. Since my plan was to buy an Audio Note preamp and monoblocks (world wide voltage) anyway - I figured - well here is my opportunity to sell the 219Ia and to then buy the KingKo as a stand in as a power amp. And then when I eventually get the Empress Silver Monoblocks (or Neiros or Jinro) I can still use the KingKo as a headphone amp - second integrated amp and it's small and can be used in a motorhome/bedroom etc. The LM 219 unfortunately has no secondary uses as it's just so big and heavy.

And I suspected that like most Chinese brands - they would discontinue it eventually - and I was right - they have. Which never helps the resale value any.

Thee 219IA was always my poor man's Jinro. Sort of 75% of the sound quality of the Jinro for 25% of the price - so I felt it was quite a great deal - still do. The KingKo though is like 98% of the sound of the LM 219IA for 1/9th the price. So pretty great deal. The KingKo is also cheaper to operate and upgrade and doesn't need to be biased and has a headphone output and smaller lighter and universal voltage etc etc. I prefer a universal transformer if I buy audio products - has to have dual voltage.

 

I'm seriously impressed with my LM 518iA, it was really everything I could of expect out of an amp, with the A7's. Thought not as big as the 219iA, it still weighs a hefty 72-lbs. I was so surprised that when I put a set of $45 tubes in the small Decware SEP, how really nice it sounded and I don't feel guilty about running it for longs periods of time. I feel that I am going to be further impressed by it with some NOS tubes from the 1950's.

It is amazing with all of the expensive amps on the market that little amps like the Mini Torii and the KingKo can be so inexpensive and sound so good!

I really like EL84 based amps and would love to have a few laying around the house. These things sound so good, are so inexpensive to buy and operate, it's silly!

One main thins I am coming to learn about integrated amps, is that while most of the are a nice "one box" solution, that their preamp section's are often holding down the performance potential of the power amp section.

Years ago, most amps had RCA in/outs with a metal jumper, in the rear of the amp to connect the preamp section to the power amp section. You rarely see that these days and I am at a loss to understand why?

I have the the Rogue, Cronos Magnum (MK I), and find it OK and actually quite good, considering that it has a lot of what the Rogue monoblock's have for half the price. But, since I have an external tube preamp, I would rather have a straight power amp like the Atlas. I guess it is OK, because it was bought as a back-up to the monoblock's and it is not bad to have a stand alone "one box" solution, in this case.

I had noted, some time back when you reviewed the KingKo, that even this little, sub $1,000 amp, has a straight line input so that it's preamp stage can be bypassed.

From the KinkKo website:

"3 groups normal input plus an additional ”Pre- Amp.” input group that could be used as Power –Amp. "

All integrated's should be built this way, IMO.

While the KingPo at 12-WPC, does not seem like a lot of power, it is 3x the power of the Mini Torii. So, relatively speaking, it is a "powerful" amp.

My first real amp, bought by me 46-years ago, was a 13-WPC SS Pioneer SA-500.

Something I also see about the KingPo, is that it has tube rectification, which seems to be a plus sound wise, for tube amps.

While all amps benefit from a strong power supply. With tubes, the iron is EVERYTHING an adds the majority of weight and the cost of a tube amp. If you are building a small tube amp, than the "iron" can also be small, in a relative way. But, this allows the manufacture of quality tube amp for far less money.

So does getting away from large, expensive power tubes, in favor of relatively inexpensive EL84's.

What you can do with regard's to tube amps, has everything to do with the speakers that you are intending to drive them with.

You will never be able to realize owning and being able to derive the benefits of small PP amps or lower powered SET's or SEP's, unless you have highly efficient speaker's.

Looks like, I need to purchase a KinkKo and hear for myself?

 

I think through the 80s and 9os the high efficiency died - the few that remained (KEF and ???) were not very good - or were not very good BECAUSE every store selling them had them being run by $180 Sony receivers. So any speaker would have some trouble sounding good.

A lot of SET amps though sound compressed dynamically even with fairly sensitive speakers - Audio Note does not but then Audio Note costs a bomb!

Assuming you have efficient speakers - and to be honest I see err HEAR absolutely ZERO sonic advantage to low efficiency loudspeakers other than price but even then - even at modest prices now you can buy Audio Note in the $1k, 2K, 3k, 4k, 5k range - but there are many options, Zu audio, Tekton, Omega, Pure Audio, Spatial Audio, Volti. Perhaps not mainstream brands but there are a LOT of these highly affordable offerings.

All of which can be run with 10 watts - some considerably less.

I would not say the Kingko is the last word - because it's not but I look at the $800 amp and it keeps my spending in check - is this about music after all and not a prize to spend the most money. The Audio Note M6 is better than the M3 - sure in my direct A/B comparisons BUT the M3 is a killer good amp it is like 95% there and is half the price. More to the point I can do a lot more with the other $11,000 difference. Even having the money - I just think that no the M3 makes me happy - I like it. Let's not get crazy.

The Kingko is one of the best amplifiers in terms of
1) ease of use (no biasing, hell King says you can plug unmatched tubes in and it will match them automatically - I would not test that but if true - pretty idiot proof)
2) performance price ratio
3) to try out tubes for the first time
4) features and usability
5) it has fracking meters - I mean - you gotta have meters - I want AN to put meters on the thing.
6) cheap as chips.

And lastly consider that the Kingko is 24lbs - this thing is TINY - I bet it is heavier per square inch than the LM 219ia!

I think he should make monoblock versions and a dedicated preamp - He could probably do it all for under $2,000. Err well close.

El84 is such a nice sounding tube.

 

you guys have put the Kingko on my radar. I sold my 518ia when my daughter was born out of fear of burnt little fingers (hell, i bought a new car too out of fear for her safety). I've been running a Yamaha A-S801 with my Snell J's, which makes me miss tubes. The Yamaha is fine, but I miss tubes. I've been considering a used LM 211ia in the 1000-1200 dollar range to dip my toes back in the water, but @Richard Austen 's comments about synergy with the HD600's is a big plus for me.

 

Funny, I was thinking about burnt little fingers too but was thinking that the cage provided with the Line Magnetics are protective enough that while you get some heat, he/she would not be able to touch the bulbs themselves. The Primaluna on the other hand, you can get your fingers on the bulbs fairly easily.