Help with first integ. amp - Primaluna v. Rogue v. Line Magnetic v. McIntosh v. Naim

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by freesole, Oct 7, 2018.

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  1. Dream On

    Dream On Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    haha, reading this thread makes me want to go out and buy a tube power amp and preamp. Upscale Audio, in addition to the PL sale, also has the Mystere pa11 at a great price. Though I think PL would be better as you'd have more tube options. Can't really justify spending thousands of dollars any more chasing 1% more sound, however. Maybe if I win a boatload of cash one day.

    I currently have a Cayin CS-55A. A really nice tube integrated that can run EL34's and KT88's. I think I like it best with KT88 tubes. Though I last used it with a quad of RFT EL34 tubes. Back when I had an Audio Space Galaxy 34 (EL34 only integrated), the RFT's were much better sounding than the stock Audio Space tubes. But in the Cayin, I preferred the stock KT88 tubes to the RFT's. Maybe KT88's just fit best with the music I tend to listen to (hard rock). I am getting more and more into classical and jazz though so who knows. Still, I'd hate to run an amp or speakers that didn't excel with all types of music.

    The Cayin is likely not the amp for me though. For one it has an integrated DAC and phonostage, which I don't need. I'd prefer to run a separate phonostage, and my CD player is quite an upscale unit. It also has 2 inputs besides these and I need more than that. The internal phonostage on the Cayin is nice sounding though. Never tried the DAC. So the Cayin is going up for sale soon.

    But more importantly, when I compared the Cayin to my Sugden a21a (Class A single ended solid state integrated), the Sugden beat it quite easily. The Cayin sounds great and without doing the direct comparison I'd maybe never hear what it lacked, but the Sugden has significantly greater clarity and resolution, and also sounds fuller in the bass with a more immediate and present midrange. The best thing about the a21a is it's ability to resolve complex musical passages - it just allows me to follow all the instruments and vocals in a song. They never seem to get jumbled together. Compared the two amps into AN AX-Two speakers, which I think is an ideal speaker to test two amps like this, that should sound their best running into an easy to drive and efficient speaker. I suspect I'd need to get a Class A SET tube amp to equal or better the Sugden.

    Now I think I'm likely to move to PMC TB2i speakers, which just does things the AN cannot do (a bigger AN speaker no doubt could though). The AN just sounds small in comparison. The PMC's have deeper and more impactful bass, more midrange presence, and greater dynamics. I think I prefer the transmission line bass to ported bass...it's more rounded, darker, and fuller. But still hugely impactful and punchy when the music calls for that. The Sugden seems to drive the PMC's with authority (90dB and I don't believe the impedance drops below 6 ohms). Though I think I feel the Sugden's heat sinks get hotter than with the AN speakers.

    So I think after experimenting a bit I like the simplicity and reliability of running a solid state amp and I'm likely to stay in that camp. There is something nice about not thinking too much about the gear and just listening to music. But at the same time, I think trying different components will always be a nice distraction. I'll probably try to focus on making fewer but more meaningful changes, rather than a lot of lateral moves. So maybe save up and one day buy a pair of Tannoy Legacy Eaton's, to get that big 10" dual concentric and fat box, but not in a speaker that is too big, which would pair well with Sugden or any kind of tube amp if I ever want to go back in that direction. Maybe a Manley Chinook to really get the most out of my turntable. And a separate NOS tube DAC to try out with my Denon CD player.
     
  2. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Overall, I prefer the KT88's to EL34's and KT-120's.

    For Jazz, Acoustic and Vocals, I prefer the RFT EL34's. I have them in an Audio Note Kit amp and it sounds very close to a SET.

    I really believe that you need very sensitive horn loaded speakers to get the most out of low power SET amps.

    Otherwise, a good class A/B is fine and in many cases, is more desirable, because of its dynamic's.
     
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  3. dianos

    dianos Forum Resident

    Location:
    The North
    Had the XS-2 till a week ago. Still have a Supernait 1 and just got the LM 508ia. They all have their good sides that the others lack. But right now the LM508 is my main amp. The Naim however is extremely good at PRAT which LM is behind at. But LM give me less listening fatigue and it shimmers and shines with depth and 3D where the Naim sounds more cold and “DAC” hifi.
     
  4. Humbuster

    Humbuster Staff Emeritus

    My thoughts exactly when I was searching for a new Integrated 5 years ago. Love my MA6600.
     
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  5. abd1

    abd1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Thanks for the reply. I also just purchased some Sophia Electric EL-34 tubes to use in my PL. They're supposed to deliver as close to a SET sound as one can get with a push/pull tube amp. I've never heard a SET amp, so I wouldn't know, but we'll see how they do. Should have those and the new DAC in about a week. However, if a good deal on a used LM 805/508 pops up I may have to go for it. There's a used 518 available, but I think I'd always be lurking for a 508 so I'll wait. I love the PL and I think its a great value, but I haven't heard one person who has listened to both who prefers the PL overall compared to LM. I never thought I'd be in to tubes but once I heard a good tube system I haven't been able to listen to solid state without getting bored of the sound.

    Quick question, do you ever listen at low volumes? If so, do you still get good dynamics and imaging? My listening area is close to my wife's office so I often listen at low volumes. I have decent headphones but I really prefer listening to speakers. One thing I learned with solid state is that they tend to sound better at higher volumes. Thanks, enjoy!
     
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  6. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I had the PL, Prologue Five and a couple LM's. One a class A/B and one a SET, the 518iA. The SET is the superior sounding amp.

    What tube amps do for your system, is highly dependent on the speaker's that you are using. Usually speaker's with high sensitivity will bring more to the party and sound better at lower volumes.

    Welcome as a new member to the forum.

    Please take a moment to fill out your equipment profile as it helps others understand better that equipment that you are using.
     
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  7. freesole

    freesole Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Nice toys to look forward to :) Give the new tubes a good amount of break in time before making judgments. I will say that I listened to both the stock PL Dialogue Premium HP vs the stock LM 805 and preferred the LM in every instance. The PL is great gear and it does sound very nice but the LM was just more pleasing (to my ears). Now, people have said that the KT150's are a great tube for the PL and I didn't get a chance to try that, however.

    I play at moderate volumes almost always but I very rarely play at reference levels. I guess define what you mean by low levels? The system's capability of playing well at low volumes is really system dependent I think. My Spendors play very well and clear at all volumes - as did my Ascend Acoustics.
     
  8. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    By replacing the preamp tubes, you'll really unlock the 508IA's potential. A night & day difference between when I first got it and how it sounds now. Really, *really* huge difference.

    Top preamp tubes for the 508IA;

    - Mullard ECC35 in the 6SL7 slot.
    - Tung-Sol 6SN7GT with round plates in the 6SN7 slots.

    Close second ; Sylvania "Bad Boys" 3-holed 6SN7GT manufactured in 1952.

    If you think it sounds good, now... :D
     
  9. dianos

    dianos Forum Resident

    Location:
    The North
    This is what's in it today. I'm not that into tubes and the quality of them yet. Any good?

    6SN7 slot. National Union 6SN7GT JAN CNU black top
    6SL7 slot. VT 229 TUNG SOL
    300B. Genalex Gold Lion

    On the NU tubes there are different numbers left and right one. What does those numbers mean?

    247-51-30 sc450 Left tube
    247-50-52 sc131 Right tube
     
  10. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    The numbers are date and manufacturing codes.

    The NU tubes aren't bad but can definitely be improved. Of course, it all depends on your budget. I recently bought a Mullard ECC33 (the European designation for 6SN7) and they are absolutely wonderful. But they sound so close to my current Tung-Sol 6SN7GT with round plates that there's no point in keeping them. Just posted them in the Classified section. They're not cheap but provide a warm open sound like nothing else!

    https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/nos-mullard-ecc33-6sn7-matched-pair.812713/

    The Tung-Sol VT-229 is good if it's the one with the round plates. I personally never tested it as I stopped immediately after getting a Mullard ECC35 (another European designation for 6SL7) which sounded ridiculously nice. That's why I bought the Mullard ECC33 as well. :)
     
  11. dianos

    dianos Forum Resident

    Location:
    The North
    I have a feeling this will ruin me going forward :cool: What do one mean with "round plates" on the VT-229?
     
  12. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    If they're the ones with the coated glass, it would be tough for you to see but in this case, the way to tell is to peek inside. If you see curved (looking fort of like cylindrical) black plates, you've got a good one.

    Perhaps it won't help your wallet but the 508IA wakes up when you give it the right tubes. Let me know if you have any questions about the Mullards. I wasn't planning on shipping internationally, but I can check how much it'd be to ship your way.
     
  13. dianos

    dianos Forum Resident

    Location:
    The North
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. freesole

    freesole Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    What are your thoughts so far on the ECC33 Mullards? How do they compare to the Tung-sols?
     
  15. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    See how those plates are rounded? That's the good stuff. :)
     
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  16. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    Near identical. I did a ton of A/B testing this weekend and it's next to impossible to tell them apart. The Tung-Sols are the tiniest bit brighter while the Mullards are every so slightly warmer. If you have inherently bright speakers, the additional warmth might be even more pronounced and noticeable. On my Harbeth C7s, it was next to impossible to tell.

    The Mullards are quieter than the Tung-Sols, not in gain, but in overall noise... you know, the type you hear when you crank the volume to near its maximum? That "shhhh" white sound-type noise? They quieted my 508IA.
     
  17. abd1

    abd1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I spent quite a few hours listening to my PL with the Sophia Electric EL-34's this past weekend. They are the best tubes I've heard, but very different from the others I have which include new production Mullard, Tung Sol, Gold Lion KT77, and Shuguang 6ca7z, and stock PL (Shuguang). They have a more delicate touch with the bass, but amazing tone and detail. Voices are surreal and just float and layers of texture seem to continuously unfold. However, curiosity kills the cat and I've been pining to try a Line Magnetic 518 or 508 (or 845/805). Since I don't have a local dealer I was able to secure a demo 508 from an authorized dealer for a pretty good deal and pulled the trigger. I might be nuts for ordering so much hifi without hearing it first, but sometimes you got to take a chance. And, after reading pages and pages of threads I think this amp may be my endgame, at least for a couple of years. I'm going to keep the PL for a while so I can compare and make sure the LM508 is functioning properly. I'll put the PL in my theater room and I'll plug it in when I get to watch something or listen to music, but that room is mostly used by my kids watching youtube or some crap so no PL for them. I also have a Directstream Jr. DAC coming to compare with my Exogal DAC, but I might cancel this as my wallet is taking a beating right now. Anyway, I appreciate the info in this and other threads on the 508. I am planning on putting in a new fuse and upgrading the driver tubes, but not right away. Once I get it up and going I'll post some pics and thoughts.
     
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  18. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    You're only going to hear it at half its potential No benefit to running the stock preamp tubes at all.
     
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  19. freesole

    freesole Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    It will be an interesting experiment though (comparing stock to stock). I know that I liked the LM stock over the PL with preamp tube changes. It just made it that much easier a choice for me to send the PL back.
     
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  20. freesole

    freesole Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Congrats! Let us know your thoughts when you get your 508. I would say try the DSJ if you can. It was a magical combination to have the LM805 and the DSJ together.
     
  21. abd1

    abd1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    What preamp tubes would you recommend, keeping cost low. I have champagne tastes on a beer budget, and not good beer.
     
  22. abd1

    abd1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Yeah, I'm really excited about the DAC. I wanted one but then came across the Exogal for a lot less and went for it. It was the most I've spent on a component and its a great dac, but I got a great deal on a new DS Jr so had to go for it. The Line Magnetic wasn't planned, but I couldn't help it. The biggest concern I have with the DS Jr. is if it will fit in my cabinet. You can see it in my profile photo. The dac may be an inch too long because of the volume knob, it will be close. The Exogal has a bluetooth remote and a control app, both are perfect because I can keep the door closed to the cabinet and control the dac. Wish more companies did that.

    It will be an interesting comparison between amps. I have quite a few tubes for the PL, but will likely have stock for the LM. I'll test using multiple tubes in the PL from stock to my favorites. I have yet to find anyone who has heard both amps and preferred the PL, although everyone likes the sound of the PL as well. I've loved my PL and never thought I'd move on from it, but I think its the gateway drug into tube amps. Should be a fun few weeks.
     
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  23. G B Kuipers

    G B Kuipers Forum Resident

    Location:
    Netherlands
    I have tried a couple of PL amps and my conclusions have been quite surprising: I vastly prefer their entry level model, the Prologue One, to their more advanced models like the Dialogue Two. I think as you move on up the line, you get a more powerful amp that is technically 'better' but also sounds closer to ss amps. The Prologue One, with stock EL34s/12au7s and better NOS 12ax7s, has some limitations in power and precision but those are easily forgiven for the tube magic that it brings into my system. Glowing, 3D mids, ripe bass notes, and a subtle shimmer to the top end without glare. I couldn't get such satisfactory results with a Dialogue Two, and I tried many many tubes in that one.
     
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  24. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    The 6SL7 tube makes the most difference in the overall sound. By far the best is the Mullard ECC35. Not cheap but worth it. Just changing that tube will make a *significant* difference!

    For somewhat cheap 6SN7s, you could get a nice pair of Sylvania Chrome Tops. Probably the best bargain but for $250 you can get a true pair of Sylvania Bad Boys which will net you an improvement over the Chrome Tops in every way except on the top-end which is always the forté of the Sylvanias.
     
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  25. displayname

    displayname Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    I haven't been lucky enough to get my ears on most of the options in this thread (yet), but I wanted to call out Mastersound which has a couple of products in the OPs price range. I've heard several Mastersound integrated amps now and I've been very impressed with all of them. They mainly differ from others by offering class A single ended designs. Obviously other trade offs are made to meet certain price points on their entry level gear, but the sound I've heard has me keeping these on my list for when I'm finally ready to upgrade. If you have a chance to check out their gear, I would suggest giving it a look.
     
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