Hi-Res Download News (HDTracks, ProStudioMasters, Pono, etc.) & Software/Mastering Part 12**

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Gary, May 9, 2015.

  1. RoyalPineapple

    RoyalPineapple It ain't me in the photo, babe.

    Location:
    England
    For the record companies, Hi-Res Audio is marketing, a product that exploits a few quirks of predictable human nature. It's an opportunity to re-sell the same albums to a diminishing audience.

    That doesn't mean they think hi-res is without any sort of benefit to their customers, but that it needs to be marketed in a way that emphasises the psychological impact on the listener. Beause that's all there is: psychological impact, placebo.

    So, do those fancy gold-plated cables really improve the sound of your stereo? Or is it just your belief in them (and your expectations of how they should sound) that improves the experience? Interesting question.

    That's partly why the prices of hi-res files are usually higher. We tend to assume that things that cost more are more valuable, more precious; and it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's the same reason you don't find many cheap options on the menu at Michelin Star restaurants. It's a show of status.

    So I think charging a relatively higher price for hi-res isn't a completely inept approach. Neil's "cheap" business model isn't a million miles away from following in the footsteps of Pono; if anything, he should put his subscription prices up and make doubly sure there's plenty of content included to justify it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  2. moomoomoomoo

    moomoomoomoo WhoNeedsRealityWhenThere'sMoreSleepToLookForwardTo

    I'd like to know the answers to those questions also; I was seriously considering subscribing.
     
  3. moomoomoomoo

    moomoomoomoo WhoNeedsRealityWhenThere'sMoreSleepToLookForwardTo

    Having been an audiophile for most of my life, I disagree with several of your points; but I can understand a lot of the factors why different people perceive sound differently.

    We each have a unique hearing spectrum. I happen to be very sensitive in the upper midrange. That can be both a blessing & a curse.

    The quality & voicing of our systems makes a huge difference in our perception of how music sounds. I've experienced a number of DRAMATIC equipment matching issues that I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't of heard them with my own ears. And there is personal preference. Would you personally prefer a brickwalled 1st generation 24 bit master, or a 3rd generation safety master made into a cd in 1982 with great dynamic range?

    It has become clear to me that some people actually prefer HEAVILY brickwalled music. It gives me a ton of listener fatigue & sometimes even pain (& I do enjoy loud hard rock).

    I have done tons of cable comparisons. I didn't believe in a difference between cables either until I was given the opportunity through loans to run lots of tests in my own home. I hear very significant differences.

    Right now I have 2 digital front ends. An Oppo BDP-95 & a cd only Espteric P10->Illumitatii cable -> a PS Audio SL3 Dac.

    CD's sound much better on the dedicated cd player than the same cd sounds on the Oppo. Conversely, the various forms of hi-res sound much better on the Oppo than an equivalent 16 bit or HDCD sounds on the Esoteric/PS Audio. Again, it's a bit of a crap shoot with brickwalled LOUD hi-res, which has never made any sense to me; why release a product that's guaranteed to p.o. most of that product's audience?

    At any rate, my opinion is that the best music & system for a specific person is the one that sounds best to that specific listener.

    I do largely agree with you on price as there is no physical product for downloads; just a somewhat expensive digital infrastructure to maintain.

    And yes, in the 21st century more than ever it's about marketing & obscene profits.
     
  4. RoyalPineapple

    RoyalPineapple It ain't me in the photo, babe.

    Location:
    England
    As something of a hi-fi fanatic myself, I think it is a really interesting subject. For instance, does a vintage Merlot taste better out of a coffee mug or a crystal glass? Most of the wine drinkers among us would agree the latter is likely to be the better, richer, more tasteful experience. The former just seems wrong, somehow.

    As with the wine, I think the "container" we listen to the music in does have an important impact psychologically. A vinyl record is a very different experience to Spotify.

    I'm a fan of high-quality cables too, and amplifiers, and high quality DACs and all that. But how much of it is really down to superiority of one material over another, and how much is due to the narrative we tell ourselves? I think the subjective part is half the fun.

    In a world where taking a sugar pill can cure clinical depression in medical trials, I think it's safe to say the audio equivalent of sugar pills are likely to also have some significant effect on our subjective experience of sound. And factors such as price, file size, audio format etc will likely all have an influence on that experience, as well.

    Hi-res audio, I think, is a step too far (after extolling it's virtues a few years ago). Not because it's "only" a placebo, but because it is one that causes more trouble than it's worth. Your mileage may very greatly vary, but regardless of conclusions drawn I think the psychology of it all is a fascinating subject.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  5. moomoomoomoo

    moomoomoomoo WhoNeedsRealityWhenThere'sMoreSleepToLookForwardTo

    Appreciate the thoughtful response.
     
    RoyalPineapple likes this.
  6. RoyalPineapple

    RoyalPineapple It ain't me in the photo, babe.

    Location:
    England
    ...And yours, above!
     
    moomoomoomoo likes this.
  7. eric777

    eric777 Astral Projectionist

    How many times have you bought something that was advertised to be better then what it actually was. This is marketing. Marketing companies are not going to advertise things by saying it’s a placebo effect. They are going to advertise things in such a way that will get people to purchase it. That’s life.

    It’s ultimately the responsibility of the buyer to make the determination on what is and is not valuable. The marketing companies are not going to do it. They just want your money.

    As far as what someone can and cannot hear is concerned, I prefer to worry only about what I can hear. Who am I to tell someone else that what they hear isn’t there? I know the science in regards to hearing, but I (as well as most of us here) am not a scientist. If someone finds value in something, who am I to tell them that they are buying snake oil?

    I have found value in 24 bit audio ;however, that value isn’t anything like what is advertised.
     
    Plan9 likes this.
  8. RoyalPineapple

    RoyalPineapple It ain't me in the photo, babe.

    Location:
    England
    Absolutely right, but at the same time you shouldn't feel restricted from sharing your own observations.

    The science of audio reproduction is something that goes over most of our heads, but an understanding of the placebo effect (with all its positive and negative implications) is something that can be much more easily digested.
     
    eric777 likes this.
  9. eric777

    eric777 Astral Projectionist

    I would not attempt to restrict anyone from saying anything. I just think that sometimes, other sides of the story need to be heard as well. That way, anyone who is curious has some food for thought.

    :righton:
     
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  10. rbbert

    rbbert Forum Resident

    Location:
    Reno, NV, USA
    It's worth noting that the term "placebo" (and therefore "placebo effect") can not actually apply to music or the medium in which it is recorded or played back.
     
  11. moomoomoomoo

    moomoomoomoo WhoNeedsRealityWhenThere'sMoreSleepToLookForwardTo

    IMO, It's ok to agree to disagree respectfully.
     
  12. Unless discussing the band Placebo.
     
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  13. RoyalPineapple

    RoyalPineapple It ain't me in the photo, babe.

    Location:
    England
    Nonsense! ;) You just need to use a bit of imagination. That's what the placebo effect is all about, after all. You believe in something, and therefore it is so.

    Product designers use the principles of the placebo effect every day. That's what we do.

    If the colour of a pill in a drug trial can radically effect its perceived flavour and efficacy, then it's not hard to apply the same principles to other areas, as well.

    And nor is it manipulative to do so, if it helps the customer get what they want (it helps if there is some sort of "real" effect too, as there is between different tube amps or speakers, for example).
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  14. rbbert

    rbbert Forum Resident

    Location:
    Reno, NV, USA
    Perhaps the “principles” of the placebo effect are at work, perhaps not. Regardless, “placebo” and “placebo effect” are not truly applicable to music and recordings. You are really discussing principles of advertising and marketing, such as “snake oil”.
     
  15. radiomd2000

    radiomd2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Santa Rosa, CA USA
    I can clear up some of this, having just signed up for a Neil Young Archives subscription, something I was intending to do anyway.

    When you view an album and click on "Buy High-Res from XStream by NYA", or maybe just the first time you do that, you're warned that you're leaving Neil Young Archives and going to another site to make a purchase. Whatever else that means, it definitely means that the terms of service at neilyoungarchives.com do not apply to whatever you buy there.

    I didn't actually buy anything. My personal archives are pretty much at maximum Neil already.
     
    moomoomoomoo and TonyCzar like this.
  16. robertawillisjr

    robertawillisjr Music Lover

    Location:
    Hampton, VA
    18HDJune 25% off many titles at HDTracks
     
    superstar19 and segue like this.
  17. segue

    segue Psychoacoustic Member

    Location:
    Hawai'i
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  18. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    The DSD downloads of Blue Note albums that Acoustic Sounds has- are these different masterings from the HDTracks?

    Did they actually go back to the master tapes and transfer to DSD? From what I understand it is pretty hard to get access to the Blue Note analog tapes these days, so I'm wondering what they are sourced from, mastered like, etc. Thanks.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  19. djcavanagh

    djcavanagh Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    I've been wondering the same thing. I think all of the ones that they've posted have 24/192 versions so I've been assuming they've just converted those to dsd but it would be nice to have confirmation. They don't seem to be available elsewhere.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  20. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    My Point of View, which is one of the titles I am interested in, has different playing lengths, 34:28 on the 24/192 and 34:40 on the DSD. Assuming that is accurate that is one thing that would lead me to believe they are different mastering. The 24/192 link also mentions mastered by Bernie Grundman but no credits for the DSD.

    Herbie Hancock-My Point Of View-FLAC 192kHz24bit Download|Acoustic Sounds
    Herbie Hancock-My Point Of View-DSD Single Rate 28MHz64fs Download|Acoustic Sounds
     
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  21. moomoomoomoo

    moomoomoomoo WhoNeedsRealityWhenThere'sMoreSleepToLookForwardTo

    This is just a guess, but if APO has done a release, the newest ones are probably taken from the APO SACD masters. I know a few years back APO redid several Verve's & the APO's were superior to my ears.
     
  22. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    All their new Blue Note DSD downloads were not released on AP SACD.
     
  23. agentalbert

    agentalbert Senior Member

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    How is Gordon Lightfoot's "Sundown" (2015) on hi-rez? Anyone have it?
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  24. agentalbert

    agentalbert Senior Member

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    Did a search of the thread (should have done that to start with, doh!) and found all positive comments on it earlier. So I'll give it a shot. :)
     
    johnny q likes this.
  25. djcavanagh

    djcavanagh Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Looking at Destination Out, which is the one I’d be most interested in, there is a similar time difference but there is also a (smaller) timing difference between the 24/192 and 24/96 versions so I’m not sure I’d want to place too much reliance on that!
     

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