Home mastering from vinyl

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Holy Zoo, Feb 23, 2002.

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  1. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-) Thread Starter

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
    Steve or anyone in the know:

    Any thoughts on the following? When I'm copying from vinyl to cdr, I quickly scan a couple of the louder tracks, set the recording level to max out at about -5db, and go.

    I have a peak-hold on my cd burner, and when I come back after each side, I'm typically getting a max peak at about -3db.

    Meaning - there's another 3db to go.

    My question is: Should I goose up the recording level just a bit more and rerecord? Am I losing much my not utilizing that last 3db?

    With analog tape, I never sweated this - I set it to hit red, backed off just a tad, and the end result was always fine (unlike what you get with digital clipping).
     
  2. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    HZ,

    I don't think I'm "in the know" but I'll comment anyway.

    What do these recorded CDs play like when compared to normal CDs? How much softer are they? I'm sure you have CDs in your collection that are significantly louder than the mean, and some that are significantly softer than average. As I posted here recently, the quietest one I have is MFSL "Crime of the Century".

    If your recorded jobs are louder than the very softest commercial CD you own I guess you are doing OK. As you posted, unlike when recording analogue, you can't go near the peak level. That's assuming the burner D/A converter and circuitry is giving you an accurate picture.

    Have you tried making a burn of a very dynamic track from an LP changing the recording level and keeping notes? Then having a listen to see if distortion indeed appears when the peak hold level approaches 0 dB? It would be interesting.

    I think getting a calibration of your own gear is going to be the only way to be sure. The -3 dB trick for digital recording is something I do remember reading, but this would have been a professional calibration.

    Regards,
    Metralla
     
  3. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Гордий українець-американець

    Location:
    Streetsboro, Ohio
    Another thing to consider is that not all sound cards are correctly calibrated to clip at 0db while recording. I used to have an old Ensoniq PC card that clipped much lower, and scarier yet, the clip meters NEVER lit up. Only when I played back the recording was I in for the surprise and by then it was too late.

    Of course, this isn't exctly related to raising level once in the digital mode, but it's still something to think about when making the original recording.


    Personally, I'm not a big fan of normalization or amplitude altering, for its own sake, after the recording is made. The cons outweigh the pros. If it were me; it was recorded at a peak level of -3db and it sounded great with no problems....I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole if need not be. What's the point. Dynamically speaking, you've already got a large enough playing field.
     
  4. Paul L.

    Paul L. New Member

    Location:
    Earth
    Jeff,
    I had a stand-alone burner with meters that gave only an indication of what was going on. I think they must have been average levels or slow-acting peak reading because when I recorded close to 0dB and looked at the result on the computer, it was clearly clipping.

    But I don't see any benefit at all in being too conservative either. You want to use what you can. If you record everything too low, you're going to get an undynamic-sounding recording.

    I would try recording at various levels and then extracting with a computer program and see how the waveforms are doing. It's a badly designed recorder if it clips below 0dB. But I guess it's also possible a designer might have allowed for people who were used to peaking the levels on their cassette decks, and planned for people to sometimes record over the 0dB level. I think you're going to have to experiment a little.
     
  5. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-) Thread Starter

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
    Thanks for the responses!

    I'm using a Sony pro standalone cd recorder, with SBM turned on. I'm not normalizing after it's recorded.

    There's a cool feature on the burner that will "hold" the max db hit, and if it goes over and clips, a red "over" light goes and stays on, so I'm pretty sure I'm not clipping, but I'll suck it into the computer and check nonetheless.

    Oh - and I do own the MoFi Crime, so I'll try comparing with that as well.

    Any other thoughts are much appreciated!

    thanks
     
  6. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Jeff,

    From your post I assume you are using a standalone burner.

    A 16-bit file recorded at -3db is wasting bits. The idea is to record as hot as possible without clipping.

    The better way to record to digital is to record with a computer and soundcard.

    You should stay away from any Creative card. This includes the Soundblaster "Live", "Audigy" and "Extigy" cards. Why? They clip at around -1db. They DO NOT record at 24-bit like they advertise. If you must use a common consumer card get the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz card. It is excellent and the specs are very impressive, just two points below the prosumer cards like Card Deluxe and the Echo cards. It isn't 24-bit but it has 18-bit converters for recording and 20-bit playback. It also has the most transparent A/D conversion in any card of it's class.

    If you do use a 16 or 18-bit card record your sound in 32-bit or convert your files to 32-bit float for processing to maintain quality.

    So, if you record or convert to 32-bit you can record lower and normalize to about -.02db for digital headroom.

    I transfer an average of two LPs to CD-R a week, have for years.
     
  7. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-) Thread Starter

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
    Thanks Grant -

    Unfortunatly (fortunately?) my stereo rig is FAAAAR away from the computer. Also, I have an iMac, no cards allowed. I'm sure there's some outboard firewire solution though, but as I said, the turntable's in a different room.

    Anyways, the Sony with SBM I have seems to be doing an outstanding job sound-wise burning cdr's, so I'm not inclined to change this setup. Just wondering if I'm blowing it by recording 3db down.
     
  8. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Again, you should record as high as possible without clipping.
     
  9. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Гордий українець-американець

    Location:
    Streetsboro, Ohio
    Yet, there are some good sounding earlier CD's that have a peak level of only say, 80 percent or so (hint, hint,) so, again, if it sounds good to your ears - I wouldn't sweat a couple db. You've most likely easily captured the full dynamic range of your LP recording in full spades. All you'll end up with is a final product that may be a couple db lower in level as it stands. Nothing to lose sleep over.
    Normalizing DOES have sonic drawbacks too...something to think about. : )
     
  10. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    First, as long as you do not EXCEED full scale digital you do NOT lose dynam,ic range. This isn't analog. If you do not record as loud as possible you are in fact sacrificing resolution. A couple of decibels are a lot. I can hear it.

    Normalizing only has drawbacks if you do it in 16-bit.

    The only time you want to record directly to 16-bit is when you plan to do NOTHING ELSE to the file.
     
  11. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Гордий українець-американець

    Location:
    Streetsboro, Ohio
    Uhh... I don't think anyone suggested otherwise.
    Then I guess you better call DCC CD's "low-resolution" from now on. I'm looking at "Let It Be Me" now which has a peak level of "only" 92.9% - and there's a lot of Steve mastered tracks that peak even lower than that! Low resolution - I don't think so.
    Others would certainly disagree. Once again, you're proclaiming your own opinion as some kind of undisputable fact. :)
     
  12. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    And again you are dismissing my post as infactual opinion just because you don't like my views.
     
  13. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-) Thread Starter

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
    Oh good grief. Chill guys. :)
     
  14. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Гордий українець-американець

    Location:
    Streetsboro, Ohio

    "Infactual Opinion"...isn't that an oxymoron?

    Truth be told Grant, I actually respect your opinions even if I don't always agree with them. It's just the declaring way you put them forth sometime, while dismissing another view...that I have a problem with.
     
  15. Doug Hess Jr.

    Doug Hess Jr. Senior Member

    Location:
    Belpre, Ohio
    Question: Let's say you record in 32 bit and then normalize and then convert to 16 bit before burning. Isn't that a lot of opportunity for the math to not come out right and ending up with a sound that isn't as good as recording in 16 bit to start with? I'm not challanging what you said, but I didn't get good grades in digital math as it comes to bits. And I'm asking from a doubting a computer is capable of perfect down conversion and concerned about doing more harm than good to the sound angle.
     
  16. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    Dough,

    Exactly. If you want to home master an LP, 16-bit CD PCM is fine. Anything else you do to the sound will botch the output as something less than what is expected at output. You can try it, but it's work that ends up being a waste of time.

    If you want to make a good homeade master, the K.I.S.S. method works better than bitrate stunts. Try it!
     
  17. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Гордий українець-американець

    Location:
    Streetsboro, Ohio
    It's important to clarify that when the whole 32-bit term is put forth when talking about programs such as CoolEdit, It's really not 32-bit recording, per se. You're still limited by the analog inputs on your card...which in *most* consumer cards is still 16 or 18 bit.

    The program just recommends CONVERTING to the 32-bit float format so that the mathematical algorithms can be performed at a higher bit-rate, and therefore be more more transparent. This is especially important if any amplitude changes are being made during editing and processing.

    It's also important when converting back to final 16 bit that one simply not truncate the extra bits. Rather, use one of the dither curves (and if desired, noise-shaping) when going back to 16/44.
     
  18. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Гордий українець-американець

    Location:
    Streetsboro, Ohio
    That should read the analog to digital conversion from your analog inputs.
     
  19. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Yes, what this does is reduce mathmatical errors in the porocessing and truncation process when dithering.
     
  20. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    But, 24-bit ain't the holy grail. There are actually better-sounding 16-bit cards out there than some 24-bit cards.
     
  21. Jeffrey

    Jeffrey Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    South Texas
    Hi HZ,

    I have the same burner ya do and recommend taking it to the limit. Why not? Go ahead and create a couple coasters by pushing the levels until it distorts. Then ya have an idea of how many of the 3 dbs ya can utilize. Shouldn't extra (clean) dbs on the cdr decrease the juice needed and distortion generated on the playback side?

    Do ya ever utilize the limiter or eq on the Sony? I don't use either and wonder if others agree.

    The Music Never Stops,
    Jeffrey
     
  22. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    It is always a good idea to leave at least-.02% headroom because some converters cannot handle FS digital. The converters will clip, particularly on older players.

    If I do get one or two peaks at 0db I will let them slide, but more than that and i'll tap the whole file down a bit.

    Of course, I am using a DAW where I can see what's going on as opposed to just relying on meters and readouts. Sharp transients can be tricky, especially if they are clicks or pops in a vinyl transfer.
     
  23. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Гордий українець-американець

    Location:
    Streetsboro, Ohio
     
  24. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    David, I hope you are making the distinction between peak normalization and RMS normalization. It seems like you are referring to RMS mormalization commonly used with limiting and compression. I am not. I'm talking about bringing the peaks to 98%, or so. There is no degredation if one does this in a 32-bit floating point format.

    But, we are talking about using a standalone burner and I don't know how the signal is being treated in this particular unit. Since it utilizes SBM I assume it uses A/D conversion to something higher?
     
  25. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Гордий українець-американець

    Location:
    Streetsboro, Ohio
    ...and I'll just add, by stating the obvious, that if we were working in the analog domain - our goal WOULD be to record as absolutely hot as possible without distortion. Here, lower input level translating to tape hiss and noise...a moot point with our digital transfers.
     
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