Homebrew cleaning question

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by metalbob, Feb 17, 2003.

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  1. metalbob

    metalbob Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I tried making some homebrew LP cleaner with 91% Isopropyl alcohol and distilled water at a ratio about about 20% alcohol and 80% water. It doesn't seem to be working very well. I have been using a standard Discwasher brush. I was on the Disc Doctor website and it says NOT to use alcohol to clean:

    4) Not contain isopropyl alcohol, which can dissolve shellac surfaces, and cause the leaching of plasticizers from synthetic plastic pressings making them brittle and subject to excess wear. Methyl alcohol should also be avoided; undenatured ethyl alcohol concentrations must be kept to a minimum.

    What is in their stuff that will work that doesn't include some kind of alcohol??? Also, I have read to add dish soap etc., but I am afraid of leaving residue.
     
  2. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Can one use Everclear?
     
  3. metalbob

    metalbob Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I wouldn't even know where to buy Everclear....haha....
     
  4. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Liquor store? Grocery store?
     
  5. wmspence

    wmspence Senior Member

    Location:
    Lexington, MA
    Hi, Metal....

    I have been cleaning records for many years using the following that I think came from Stereophile or Listener or somesuch:

    80% Distilled H20

    20% Isopropyl....I used to be able to get 99% but now have to settle for the 91% stuff.

    4 drops of Windex

    10 drops of Photo-flo 20 which is a wetting agent or surfactant. That is probably where you are having a bit of trouble with the water/alcohol solution. You need something to reduce surface tension.

    The above is per quart solution. I know all of the brew-hah-hah about residue, ruining the vinyl, etc., but let me tell you, I have one heckuva lot of fine sounding records that I play on a very revealing turntable rig. No problemo with the above. For whatever it is worth.

    Bill
     
  6. wmspence

    wmspence Senior Member

    Location:
    Lexington, MA
    PS: I forgot to mention that I use that above solution with a Nitty Gritty vac. That may be why I have been successful with this homebrew.

    Bill
     
  7. metalbob

    metalbob Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Re: Re: Homebrew cleaning question

    I mixed mine in a 6oz empty Discwasher bottle. I have heard that you SHOULDN'T use Photo-flo. Did Kodak send that report out to discourage the use of it so they wouldn't be liable of any damaged vinyl?

    Since you are mixing a good amount of it, wouldn't Photo-Flo OR Windex even make a difference in such small quantities (i.e. drops)?

    BTW, I don't have a vacuum system right now. Someday I hope to.
     
  8. wmspence

    wmspence Senior Member

    Location:
    Lexington, MA
    Hi, again.

    Well, believe it or not, I am licensed to mix chemicals and, IMHO, the few drops you add ain't a big deal!!! By the bye, it is Photo-Flo 200 not "20" as I noted above. I have an extensive MoFi, DCC, Classic, etc. collection that I have never hesitated to clean with this material. I usually do it once with the vac and then use an Oracle carbon fiber brush for cleanings in-between. Works fine for me.

    Bill

    PS: get the vac...it is essential, I think. VPI or NG are fine.
     
  9. metalbob

    metalbob Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I told a friend once about using any kind of alcohol or whatever in some homebrew cleaner and he couldn't believe it. I am not sure what "magic potion" he thinks is in Discwasher (which I have come to find out on this board is not all that great anyway, but seems to be the easiest to find).
     
  10. vex

    vex New Member

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Discwasher fluid doesn't work very well, but as they say, it is better than nothing.

    I've used the the homebrew distilled water and isopropyl achohol mix and find it to be a considerable step up from Discwasher fluid. I add a drop or two of hand soap. This is the solution I use for deep cleaning of records.

    However, for day-to-day light cleaning, I absolutely swear by Ronsonol ligher fluid. I use it straight up, squirting a line across the front edge of a Discwasher brush and follow through with Discwasher's cleaning method.

    I've done this for years and absolutely swear by it. I was hesitant at first, but I've gotten to the point where I am not afraid to use Ronsonol to clean even my rarest records. It produces the cleanest and quietest playing surfaces of any method I've tried.

    One of these days I'll break down and buy a record cleaning machine, but in the meantime, I'm sold on my manual method.
     
  11. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

    Location:
    ---------------
    You need to add a degreasing agent. A mild nonabressive soap.
     
  12. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    The Disc Doctor site is correct, but they don't specify the extent of the leaching of plasticizers from the vinyl that will occur...it's fairly minimal with very diluted alcohol. Even cleaning with Disc Doctor fluid will result in the leaching of plasticizers, albeit a very small amount.

    Plasticizers allow the groove walls to flex as the stylus passes through them. It's this "give" that keeps the grooves from sustaining damage as the stylus passes...a process that generates shockingly high temperatures. With impaired flexing ability in the vinyl, the heat caused by the tracking stylus will actually chip tiny pieces of vinyl out of the groove walls as it passes. This is why records develop surface noise with excessive play. The plasticizers begin to break down and the groove walls won't flex as they once did, leaving them susceptible to the heat damage mentioned above.

    Cleaners containing alcohol leach plasticizers more than non-alcohol cleaners. Same holds for dishwashing soap, which I would discourage. Dishwashing soaps contain surfactants which will leach plasticizers. Although some record cleaning fluids contain surfactants, they are in a far lower concentration than that of dishwashing soap, and the leaching is proportionately lower. Definitely stay away from Windex, which contains ammonia. Very bad for plasticizers.

    Virtually everything will leach plasticizers, even water. Therefore, each cleaning will leach at least some of the plasticizers from vinyl. The point is to minimize leaching, which the Disc Doctor fluid will do.

    Ever wonder what the "new" smell of a car interior is? It's the plasticizers in the vinyl and plastic components. Imagine washing your dashboard with alcohol, dishwashing soap, or Windex. It would become very brittle within a few years as the necessary amount of plasticizers would no longer be there to give it some "flex". Same basic concept with vinyl. Heat from the sun compounds the dashboard scenario just as heat from your stylus tracking the grooves compounds the record scenario.

    If you play your records infrequently, the home-brew diluted alcohol recipes probably won't cause any trouble, but they will most certainly reduce the number of plays your records can handle before they're susceptible to groove damage from the stylus. If you plan on playing your records regularly, get some Disc Doctor fluid. One cleaning with it will last the life of the record if you maintain the cleaned disc.

    By the way, the alcohol/shellac warning is just that. Don't use alcohol on old shellac records...it'll destroy them. I'm sure most know this if they have any interest in shellac records, but it's worth repeating for the folks out there who haven't heard it. Alcohol melts shellac.

    Quality record cleaning solutions are worth the price, which isn't much considering what you already have invested in records and your hobby, in general. Not a good place to cut corners, IMO.
     
  13. Robb

    Robb Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    Thanks, Arin, for all the information.

    It's good to know that any kind of cleaning will leach the plasticizers from the record, and the key is to minimize that leaching.

    I used Torumat fluid for a few years on a Nitty Gritty machine. To my ears, it was effective. Torumat does not contain alcohol, and is reputed to be the best fluid next to Disc Doctor. I have not tried the Disc Doctor method yet, but it definitely will be my next audio hardware purchase.

    It's my belief that hand-washing is just as effective as a vacuum cleaner. I use home brew now with a hand wash and rinse, and it works very well. But, it does contain alcohol, and I am in this hobby for the long haul, so I will go with the Disc Doctor.
     
  14. metalbob

    metalbob Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Jersey
    What is IN Disc Doctor if there is no alcohol? I'd prefer not to use it either if I don't have to.
     
  15. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    Dunno, or I'd probably make my own. ;) It's mighty good stuff, though.
     
  16. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    I don't want to rain on anyone, but no one should be using Photo-flo. It's a chemical that will coat vinyl, and essentially dry leaving a small film. Bad Ju-ju.
     
  17. lsupro

    lsupro King of Ignorers

    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Man.... I am floored. I need to submit some of these to to BASF... they won't make the solutions... they'll make the solution better..

    I'd swear we have some chemists here in the forum.

    I'm impressed.
     
  18. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    I used Torumat, too...effective stuff. Then I switched to DD and I'm staying put. What a great cleaner. There's no doubt cleaning by hand with DD works well, but I think the vacuum method is tough to equal. I actually clean on an old cheapie Pioneer TT I modified to allow for drainage, then place the record on a VPI 16.5 and vacuum. Nice method. It allows me to clean at my own pace without having the VPI dictate it with it's RPMs. It saves the motor on the VPI, too.

    Anybody keeping their records and stylus squeeky clean and their cartridge dialed in will be enjoying vinyl for a long time. :)
     
  19. John Moschella

    John Moschella Senior Member

    Location:
    Christiansburg, VA
    Arin and others,
    Any thoughts on the LAST #2 preservative. Do you know what this does to justify their claim?

    I too use the DD system with my VPI. The records get cleaner and they do indeed sound better.
     
  20. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    It's also the film that covers the inside of your car windows, from what I've heard. The leeching is airborne in this case, caused partially by the intense summer heat.
     
  21. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    BTW, I am sold on vacuum cleaning. I use an old turntable mat to do my "scrubbing", then stick it on the vacuum and lift all of the sludge out of the grooves. Depending on the age of the vinyl and/or amount of crud, it sometimes takes me a few tries, or even a good soaking, to get an LP cleaned to my satisfaction.

    I have never looked at Discwasher as a good *cleaning* solution, but rather a good between-vacuuming ritual to keep the dust and dirt at bay.

    Heh...I know some collectors who aren't audiophiles that swear by washing their vinyl with dishwashing detergent under running water, then towel dry it. Hey, that's fine. If you want to eat off of it for dinner.

    I used to swear by LAST, but honestly never heard this wonderful, magical improvement that the audio press bestowed upon it. It would be nice to know exactly what it does, though, just to reassure me I didn't waste my money. (Didn't it work on the principle of reducing friction?)
     
  22. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    LAST Record Preservative is basically a lubricant meant to decrease heat and friction at the groove/stylus contact point. It's also claimed to enhance fidelity through said reduction, which would make sense. I've never used it, so I can't comment on it's effectiveness. It is Stereophile recommended, but they have over the years recommended a few less than recommendable things, so I suppose that's to be taken with a grain of salt.

    I'm a bit paranoid about applying any kind of treatments to my records as I've never really felt a need. I do know that in the past, there were more record treatments marketed, some of which eventually gummed up on the surface of the record, effectively ruining them. No lie. However, LAST Record Preservative has been around for quite a while. I think it was introduced in the late 1970s/early 1980s, though I'm not certain the product currently available is the same formulation. I've never heard any complaints, but I'm inclined to err on the side of caution. Same goes for the currently available Gruv-Glide...I'm just reluctant.

    I have some cleaned records I've played upwards around 100 times (no kidding) and have noticed no audible wear. That's a lot of plays! Of course, they're probably on the verge of audible wear, but none yet. Think about that. 100 plays will go a long way. If I think I'll be playing a record a lot, I'll always buy a backup copy or two.

    As long as the record and stylus are kept clean, and the cartridge is properly aligned, records can be quite durable. I'd say if you want to try some LAST preservative, experiment with a few cheap records. It may not be bad stuff, but like I said, I'm kinda paranoid about these things. ;)
     
  23. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    Hope they have one heckuva water-softener! ;)
     
  24. Robb

    Robb Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    One thing I do not like about the LAST record preservative is that it leaves a noticeable film/sheen on the record. I don't think it works one way or the other. However, for the records I've treated, I've not played them enough to state without hesitation that record wear is eliminated or reduced.

    In sum, I'm not sold on LAST. I'd just as soon keep my record and stylus clean and be done with it. Perhaps I didn't apply LAST correctly, but if that's the case, the application method could use some improvement, because I followed the instructions to the letter. Maybe if they came out with a spray bottle instead of the velvet pad attached to a piece of plastic, then I could apply it more evenly.

    I'd like to have your method of vacuum cleaning, Arin! Sounds cheap and very effective.
     
  25. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    As bad as our water is here now, there would be a crusty white deposit at the bottom of the grooves. There's so much crud in our tap water that our faucets are getting crusted up and not working correctly. Thank goodness I don't drink it!

    As for LAST, I have used it in the past, and have never noticed any change in the sound. (No additional noise.) So I'm not *afraid* to use it. However, if it isn't *improving* the sound, why should I even bother? LAST came out in the early 80's, and I'd treated a few dozen LPs with it. Today, I don't even know where my LAST kit is at...and have no urge to look for it.
     
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