I'm running my Mofi Studio Deck turntable (love it) into a Musical Fidelity m3si integrated and wondering how much the built in phono stage might be lacking vs a separate and is a budget phono stage better simply because it's a separate? In other words I have no clue or reference point of at what price point do I get a meaningful upgrade.
No definite answer. Some manufacturers use a cheap chip , RIAA based Stage as an afterthought Musical Fidelity I'm certain is not one of them. Naim for example fit state of the art phonostages to their preamps. Although we are talking about integrated amps. Personally if I'm happy with the sound I'm getting with my vinyl I simply enjoy and forget upgrading. Sometimes an upgrade can unbalance A system.
As far as your main question, it depends.............. Here is what I can say, Can I assume you're just starting off with the equipment you currently have? Do you know how to remove your cartridge, reinstall it and do a complete setup of your table? VTA, VTF, Set Null Points? What kind of records are you buying? Do you wash them as needed, or have any way to wash them? If your just starting off with this equipment, new to playing records, don't know how to setup and work with your table I would do this. Slow your roll on buying and spend time with the system acclimating to how it sounds, make adjustments to see if you can get the sound better. What cartridge did you get with your table? Now that you have spent time with your system, do you feel your missing something? Well without a reference point you don't know, but you can build one. Maybe shop for used phono stages, this way you have one to compare with the built in unit, if you don't like the new used unit you should be able to sell it and get your money back. It's the best way buying used because you can try many different things and then off it if you don't like it. Your cartridge will play a bigger part to the sound quality you get. I would say out of your table, arm and phono stage the cartridge is the biggest sound change you can make in your vinyl frontend.
The Croft Phono packaged in the pre and integrated is definitely an outlier - one of the best MM stages around. It comes separate in the Croft RIAA too if that's what you are after.
I have 5 amplifiers with phono stages. A&R A60, Arcam Alpha 2, Rotel RA-02, Denon 355, Nad C165Bee I've no idea which is best, it's hard to tell, and no Idea what the sort of minimum price I should start looking at phono stages in order to get a marked improvement. $200? $500?
The phono stage in the $1600 Musical Fidelity: Sensitivity (nominal): 3mV (suitable for cartridges giving 1.5mV or more including high output MC types) Signal / noise ratio: >70dB ‘A’-weighted Input impedance: 50k Ohms Frequency response: RIAA/IEC ±1dB, 20Hz to 20 kHz Here's its phono stage, the opamp surrounded on each side by all the passive components, and possibly the second stage behind it: This is what state-of-the-art can also look like now. Low stray capacitance, short traces that don't allow much interference. Signal boosted within 4cm of the input jack. The top active component I'd pick today is the same size as one of the surface-mount capacitors. You'd not be able to tell if they used components with a bill-of-materials 10x the cost (like a single one of those capacitors costing $2) or just had the fab pick-and-place whatever no-name components they had on the reel, except for this unit's specifications that allow a 2dB variance in the frequency levels, and the low noise rating (put it right next to a USB codec?) Even that mediocre noise floor and response spec is wiped away as soon as you put a needle on a record, though. Integrated amplifiers get a robust power supply "for free", but also can have lots of sources of electrical noise that affect tiny phono signals. Vinyl and the reproduction was the primary selling point of receivers until CD took over, and there were many designs that were pushing the limit (like preamps that topped out at 100 volts + of power supply)
One of the reasons I like to run the older equipment, because the phono stage was an important part of the engineering, and not just an afterthought/toss-off.
Very true in some cases. For one instance the Sony STR-7055 is regarded as having an exceptional phono stage built-in. I really do not know for sure on what others may have the same great stage or not.
That depends on the model of the amplifier I would think. My Yamaha A-S3000( which was not cheap when issued) is superlative in my opinion. Perhaps, as with many things, if the manufacturer is reputable you get better engineering and better parts quality as you spend more money. There may be some bargains out there as well with components that perform better than price would indicate. Research.
I am quite happy with the MM and MC phono preamp in my new Denon PMA-900HNE. I am using a moving coil Denon DL-103 with the 900 and it sounds fantastic to me.
My guess is the included phono stage is similar to the lower end MF separate models at £150-£200 UK. I would think you would have to spend around £700 plus to get a good upgrade with extra flexibility. (MXVynl = £759 and M3x Vinyl = £1250 in UK).
This topic comes up often. Answer (as stated already): It depends on the integrated, and what you'd be comparing it to - not possible to generalize. What price point where it crosses over and becomes "good enough"? Again, can't generalize, it's relative to what you'd compare it to. Specific examples of gear would help to compare.
Stay the course. But the day may come you'll want to experiment with moving coils (or tubes) and will need load options, then go after a decent separate.
