How common are subwoofers in music-only systems in this forum?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Bob_in_OKC, Oct 1, 2019.

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  1. wgb113

    wgb113 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chester County, PA
    I use an Elac SUB 3010 in my main setup. It blends well with the LS50Ws and gets me deeper into that bottom octave.
     
  2. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    :cheers:
    I absolutely agree with you! It is perfectly possible to setup and tune a sub by ear. You need to know what songs to use and what to listen for. Plenty of online info by pros regarding this subject to be found online.
    Did a few weeks of research, tuning and listening when I got my Rel T7i, but never felt the need to touch it since then.
    Don't be put off by all the integration horror stories to try a (decent) sub.
    It has completely transformed my listening experience, every now and then I turn the sub down just to hear what I was missing before...and there really is no way back for me.
     
  3. Thing Fish

    Thing Fish “Jazz isn't dead. It just smells funny.”

    Location:
    London, England
    Never need one.
    A bit like a graphic equaliser I think if I did then my speakers and/or room acoustics would seriously be lacking something.
    Bass should be light and tight not overblown.
    A good set of well matched speakers should easily achieve this.
     
  4. Pastafarian

    Pastafarian Forum Resident

    It sounds like you haven't heard a well integrated sub, the bass should just be deeper, tighter and certainly no boom.
     
  5. Treegarden

    Treegarden Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Stamford, CT
    I put together a listening room in a new house about 6 months ago, and a subwoofer was always part of the plan. I want full-spectrum sound that gives me the impact of drums, bass, and other low-frequency sources. I'm using an Elac unit.
     
    Mike-48 and Szeppelin75 like this.
  6. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    "Light bass"? Ever played in a band....with a bass player? Ever stood next to someone playing the standing bass ?
     
    Mike-48 likes this.
  7. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    Not really fair though because you have much more experience with audio than most. I wouldn't recommend others try doing it by ear.
     
  8. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I set up everything by ear, except I use the tone generator of the processor and dB meter to make sure that the HT surround is equally balanced out.

    I never room automatic room correction software. Sub bass is also adjusted my ear.

    Sine I have the LFE output routed to the Crown amplifier that powers the passive commercial sub, I also route the stereo signal into the processor through an unused input for stereo. I can then make minor adjustments to an individual recording by adjusting the subs volume level using the processors remote.

    Yes! Setting up and properly integrating a sub is not rocket science.

    Anyone who understands what their music sounds like can properly set up a sub.

    At the end of the day, your music should still sound exactly the same with or without the sub, just with more bottom end with the sub.
     
    Vinny123 likes this.
  9. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    Thank you to all who have replied, regardless of yay or nay, with details or not. Interesting discussion so far.
     
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  10. Slippers-on

    Slippers-on Forum Resident

    Location:
    St.Louis Mo.
    I had a pair of those Revels a few years back. I think you are kidding yourself.
    You thinking about adding a sub?
     
  11. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    Sort of. I wonder if adding one or two of the little REL T5/i might give me a heft similar to the big ProAc without replacing my current speakers. I continue to be intrigued by the D48, but subs are cheaper. Truth be told, I’m happy as it is and can’t fully justify the upgrade to the D48. But I could see spending $1,200 on the sub idea, no problem.
     
  12. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Well, it's not a "music-only" system, since I have it hooked up to the TV and a Blu-ray player, but I'd still have the sub even if it were a music-only system, and the same sub at that. It's one sealed sub. I lived with a ported sub for about 20 years. That was 20 years too long.

    :uhhuh:

    It doesn't match the brand of speakers - it's a Pioneer Elite SW-E10 which I've had just shy of a year. It's certainly necessary with my little old Energy eXL 15 mains and center channel speakers, for music or film. I think subs are a fantastic innovation that lets tiny, room-friendly bookshelf and smaller speakers compete with their larger brethren when it comes to reproducing bass at far lower cost...and without the numerous drawbacks of larger speakers (beyond just their bulk).
     
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  13. Thing Fish

    Thing Fish “Jazz isn't dead. It just smells funny.”

    Location:
    London, England
    Yep, played in a band for 12 years all over London. Our bass player played a Rickenbacker through a trace elliot.
    It was a nice tight sound and not overbearing.
     
    bever70 likes this.
  14. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    Well I can understand tight bass, but light?! Personally, before I had the sub I didn't have the same feeling as being in a rehearsal room with with the band, it was only after I added the sub that the penny dropped.
     
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  15. Pastafarian

    Pastafarian Forum Resident

    Setting up by ear is not difficult it just takes time, you just have to realise some tracks have little going on in the low frequencies, once you've got it right you'll be able to tell that it's the recording and no tracks will sound bloated.

    I had to redial in my sub last month and it took 1 hour of listening to some tracks to get it right.
     
    bever70 likes this.
  16. Riotvan

    Riotvan Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I use two 10" sealed subs with Peerless drivers. Love it!
     
  17. Sterling1

    Sterling1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    I had trouble using my ears to get it right; but, I judged it being right using my ears. After setting my mains to crossover at 60Hz, and surrounds/center to crossover at 80Hz, I played a test tone from my digital Prepro to each speaker, one at a time, measuring the db level with an iPhone sound meter app; thereafter, I adjusted each speaker's gain, including the sub, as required until all were at an equal volume. This has been an effective means to present stereo music via my Prepro's LFE feature, as well as surround sound movies; although, I also enjoy surround sound movies, and multi-channel music via my OPPO 205 played to a multi-channel analog preamp. In that arrangement the OPPO manages bass where I still have used a sound meter to measure tone volume produced by the OPPO, adjusting each channel's gain via the meter reading to get awesome results. That's to say, the bass sounds right unless I am playing at under -70db or over -30db, which might require some adjustment to bass gain at the subwoofer's amp. I adjust at the amp since going into the OPPO or Prepro's menu consumes too much time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  18. Vinny123

    Vinny123 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    I’ve found that it really does take some time to get subs to sound good in a music system. Even after setting the crossover and levels correctly it took me weeks to tweak it to where it sounds right. Labor of love though.
     
    sturgus, Mike-48 and Sterling1 like this.
  19. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

     
  20. Leigh

    Leigh https://orf.media

    A long time ago I was loaned a pair of ProAc Super Tablettes - they are small speakers that sound lovely but don't have much of a bottom end. So I started using a subwoofer a long time ago. Fast forward to today and I have a more modern version of the Tablettes, and a nicer subwoofer. I've never felt any alignment with the "snooty audiophile position" that subwoofers are bad because there is no way to blend them with monitors or whatever. I have a SVS sub that allows for ported or sealed (you can plug up the holes) and I've tried all the different configurations and in my current listening room, which is large and open to the entire basement, I have all three ports open.

    There is no reason to match brands IMO.

    As far as "bad idea" it's a hobby, do what works for you and stuff the haters.
     
  21. mark_j

    mark_j Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Based on online comments I expected my sub to be difficult to setup. I went to KEF's website and read their advice on how to integrate a subwoofer (I own KEF speakers). Basically, it said to run the main speakers full range, set the sub's filter at the -3 db point of their bass response, start at zero gain on the sub's amp and slowly increase until you hear it start to fill in the bottom end. Done.

    It worked great and took around 20 minutes and most of that time was spent moving the sub into few different positions to determine where it sounded best. Live rock music has explosive bass and a good powered sub, IME, is the most cost effective way to approach that experience at home. I like what it does for upright bass on my jazz records also. Can't imagine going back.
     
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  22. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I have heard a few ported subs that didn't sound especially ported, but in side-by-side listening they almost always tend to produce mushy bass with far less-defined, less natural drum and upright bass sounds. I think some of that is due to the ports themselves and timing issues, and I think some of that is because the port tends to vent in a different direction than the driver, which can interact with the room placement in unfortunate ways.

    You obviously tend to get more thump for your buck with a ported sub, though. And some sealed subs sound mushier than others, depending I assume on how rigid the driver is, how it resists cone breakup, how well-dampened the case is, etc.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  23. Mike-48

    Mike-48 A shadow of my former self

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    My stereo system incorporates two sealed subs (JL Audio F112). The last audiophile who heard the system put his ears by the subs to see if they had any output. I've got them set up as @chervokas and others have suggested -- for smooth FR from the whole system, which helps make the subs undetectable.
    I tried at least half a dozen positions for the subs before finding the one that worked best. Among other things, it was the position that allowed the subs to fill in a 40 Hz room null at the listening position. (And I'm surprised by the number of audiophiles who place the subs right by the mains. Though that seems logical in one way, in my admittedly limited experience, it hasn't given the best results. Jim Smith's book Get Better Sound has material on positioning subs.)

    Adjusting the subs' phase was important in my setup to get that flat, seamless response. To do that and set levels, you pretty much need to make measurements.
    I admire your abilities and commend your results. I'd guess not many of us can do this by ear and get it right.

    Are subs necessary? Depends on the room, speakers, and listener. In my case, they are -- as much as anything in hifi is "necessary".
     
  24. Doug Sclar

    Doug Sclar Forum Legend

    Location:
    The OC
    Fair enough, but there is little to lose by trying. I also have two subs, and I think that makes it easier, though some me feel just the opposite. My subs are directly under my mains and the voice coils are aligned to be in the same plane as the main drivers. I find it essential for all sounds to arrive at my ears at the same precise time and IMO this makes a significant difference.

    The first thing I did was to concentrate on one side. I would listen to both music and pulsed tones that had content in the crossover region and I'd put my head right in between the woofer in the mains and the subwoofer. I made sure that there was a phantom image right in the center between the two drivers. Then I did the same with the other side. I learned a long time ago to never trust the internal wiring as I've seen professional speakers with the drivers miswired.

    Once I had both subs in the same polarity as their main counterparts, I verified that the subs were in phase by listening to a phantom image between them. To make this easier I temporarily set the cutoff frequency of the subs as high as possible so there was enough material in the subs to easily detect the phantom image. Of course this should already be set properly from the first procedure of integrating the subs with the main speakers, but this is a nice verification.

    Setting the crossover frequency was a bit tougher. In my case the low frequency cutoff from my mains is determined simply by using an inline polycarbonate capacitor. This is a very simple broad cutoff but it offers minimal degradation compared to active high pass filters. In my case, my 3db down point was at 70 hz.

    Setting the low pass filter was easier. I use a passive crossover for the mains, but an active crossover for the subs. The reasoning behind this is that any degradation in the active section will be far less significant than using an active stage for the mains. After all, most electronic degradation seems to manifest itself in the mids and highs and since there were none in the subs this seemed like the best approach.

    Setting the crossover frequency in the low pass section was pretty much trial and error. Since my mains started rolling off at 70 Hz, that was my starting point. I went back to the first test, and found musical content in the 70 Hz range, plus I also used tones to sweep through that region. I tried to get as smooth a transition from the mains to the subs as I could and it turned out that my initial setup was pretty close.

    Setting the level of the subs was pretty easy. I merely turned them up until I could hear them, and backed them off until I could not notice them standing out. Once this was dialed in, everything seemed very natural. I've never felt the need to change any settings as a result of anything I heard from that point on.

    I have one more adjustment which helped a bit. In my low pass section of the crossover is a broad 25 hz equalizer which can help lowering the effective cutoff of the subs. My subs start rolling off around 30 hz, so boosting that eq by couple decibels essentially lets them go a bit lower, and that has been pretty effective as well. Of course that boost comes at the expense of low frequency headroom.

    Once this was all done, the result was that I could sweep a tone through both channels simultaneously over the complete audio range and the resulting phantom image would be dead center and at a fairly constant level.

    And sure enough, there were a few times where things pretty much immediately sounded out of balance, and it was always because my housekeeper accidentally bumped a crossover setting during dusting. It was very easy to correct that and it also verifies that my setup is where it needs to be.
     
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  25. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I would never use an active crossover on the main Altec A7's, but I have no problem with an electronic crossover of the sub.

    The electronic crossover in the HT processor, gives my the ability of having a 24 dB. per octave slope frequency cut off, which better matches the natural drop off of the Altec 828 bass cabinets and more precisely crossover at 40-Hz.

    You have much more precise control over setting up a passive subwoofer when you employ an electronic crossover.
     
    Sterling1 likes this.
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