How good are Thorens turntables?

Hi,

Thorens turntables are excellent machines. I love the TD 124, 224, 150, 160, 165, and 126 series well. They are more like Linn than VPI or Rega in nature. Thorens machines are superbly reliable and have superb speed stability and are extremely tweakable. A superb bargain for the money in older models. The new ones are variable and most aren't as good as older models. Factory support is non-existent for the original company's products. I'd much rather have any of the better models than a Rega any day!

 

Some time ago, the new Thorens company sent cease-and-desist letters to fansites who were offering free downloads of old Thorens manuals, and then put their own download shop online:

http://service.thorens.de

That's all this company can do

When the old company closed, the former Thorens developper Rolf Kelch bought the remaining stock of spare parts, and is now offering service and modifications.

http://www.rolf-kelch.de (most parts of the site are not working)

 

Just one point on the Lenco design that makes it different - the idler wheel does not press against the inside of the platter; the wheel is vertical.

 

I love the Thorens TD-125 MKII with the SME 3009 tonearm. Its a really nice sounding setup. Its still one of my favorite tables ever. The Thorens TD-126 is even better.

BTW, has anyone here seen the Thorens Reference or the Prestige?

 

I own an early 80's Thorens belt-drive TD-115. A little hard to find, but it's great, and you can pick up a nice clean one I'd imagine in the $200 range.

As far as idler drive tables go, if you are on a budget, you can pick up really clean Miracords for $100 or less. I've owned a few, and I think they are a bargain.

 

Just my opinion as a former Sondek owner and a "Lencoer" now!
Sorry but wrong!
What this simple design does, is to transmit a high torque to the platter which in turn isn't affected by stylus drag.
Have you imagined the force a rock being dragged through a vinyl canyon, permanently bangin on its walls, causes?

 

Wow - this is the kind of comparison I was hoping to read about.

Gugaz, is it fair to compare the two? ie: Was the Linn set up with comparable arm/tube/phono stage to the Lenco's setup?

"Stylus drag" issue notwithstanding, was not the Linn Sondek quieter and have a clearer image?

Or is the Lenco superior in every way?

I ask because I may go the same way as you if I can find a Lenco - but I've heard the opposite of your statement as well - that a properly set up Linn outclasses any Thorens - or any vintage TT - as well.

So I'm very curious to hear about your experience.

 

I'd be tempted to recommend a good, restored vintage Thorens with a nice arm & cart. If that doesn't float the boat of the buyer in question, he could sell it for however much he paid, most likely, and try something else.

But I suspect he'd be happy after having a listen to a nicely set up old 'un, and having enough left over from original budget to buy an absolute shagload of vinyl.

Dave at Vinylnirvana.com always has some lovely tables for sale, and he's a thoroughly nice chap too.

My TD-160 & SME 3009 s2 (bought combined for £165 ie <$350) sound better than they have any right to at the price.

 

Why don’t you guys give this lovely TT a chance?

How come you guys are talking about vintage tools?
Am I the only one on the forums who actually owns this thing?
(Thorens TD 850)

I don’t think LeeS was meaning to hear about old tables …

”I put a test record on and
checked the speed accuracy with
a hertz-reading voltmeter.
Perfect. Then I listened
through a stethoscope and
found the 850’s plinth to be
absolutely free of motorinduced
noise and vibrations.
Finally, a finger-tap
test revealed this plinth
design to be among the
most effectively damped
I’ve come across. I could
turn up the volume very
high, tap the plinth, and hear very little
coming through the speakers. What did
get through was a brief, innocuous,
high-pitched pop—none of the thunk
you get from many other designs.
Bottom line: The 850 runs at the right
speed, with no motor-noise leakage in a
one-piece design, and ultra-effective
damping. Impressive. (From Stereophile)

HiFi News
”The TD 850 was the Rolls Royce of the three, giving a stately and unfazed rendition of any LP played on it. This is the kind of deck which shows the gateway to real high-end vinyl playback. Stereo Images were very stable in space, giving the sense that everything was secure in place with no hint of uncertainty in thatpositioning. Pitch stability was also the deck´s strength, showing a sense of timing that may be familiar to LP 12 owners.” -November 2003

 

VPI - SCOUT TURNTABLE with JMW-9 Plus TonearmJMW-9 Signature TonearmJMW-9 Standard Tonearm
Price:
$1,650.00
*
Thorens TD 850 Turntable (Blank Armboard) with no tonearm
Price:
$1,999.00

I'm stumped. The Thorens is that much better (or better at all) than the Scout? The price reflects that.

 

I understand about the forces at work regarding stylus drag -- a good direct drive turntable is supposed to do the same thing, preventing slow down on loud and complex passages and such. But my question is, how can a rubber wheel turning the platter not transmit vibrations which will be picked up by the stylus? No matter how quiet the bearing or how solid the plinth, why wouldn't an idler wheel drive cause more noise/rumble than belt and direct drive?

 

Bill, I dunno. You just have to hear decently replinthed/restored Garrard, Thorens, Lenco, etc....and make your own judgement.

Secondly, I will easily admit that I am a little perplexed as to how the heavy. cld plinth helps but indeed it does. Before and after listening was illuminating (with a stethoscope and without).

Finally, it could be for several reasons of which I am not an expert and more important to note than anything, rumble is a complex issue. Many claims of rumble can be specious because rumble can occur from so many different causes (most common - improper turntable setup/stands). Reasons why they don't rumble could be: the very original specs on Garrards and Lencos provide very low wow and rumble figures, motor in the Lenco is suspended by springs, heavy platter/rubber mat, the wheel on a Lenco requires very little pressure to spin a table, the contact area of the idler wheel is very small and rubber, the idlers motors don't cog like the modern AC synch motors, the Lenco idler spins on a shaft instead of spinning a shaft inside a bushing, etc. etc. etc....

But, back to Lee's topic, I can't say much about modern Thorens tables although I do know it isn't the same company as when they made their classics. If were to buy a Thorens for $3K, I would buy one of their classic tables: TD124 or TD124mkii and hire a skilled woodworker to build a custom cld plinth for it. Money leftover would be spent on an exquisite tonearm.
That said, I wouldn't blame anyone for looking to modern belt drives given the intensive nature of owning an older table.

 

It attempts to do so in a different manner. I don't think most implementations of direct drive were aimed at dealing with this. They were more focused on speed accuracy, as the advertising mavens could get a lot of mileage out of that.

I'm no expert - I have a Linn. But these idler wheels are fascinating. I'm just thinking out loud here - and I think you are too.

I think one theory is the motor is spinning a lot faster - so that's many things taken care of. The motor is inherently quieter and more speed stable. Less rumble to start with.

Now we have the idler wheel between the fast-spinning motor and the platter. One would think that the mounting and the bearings of this idler wheel are critical - maybe that's why the "big plinth" designs finally make this seemingly archaic transport mechanism superior. The idler wheel material - rubber, right? Doesn't seem that much of an engineering problem to solve.

Maybe one can't get the rumble as low as a belt drive. Now that's certainly something that can be measured. But is it the dominant contributor to good sound?

 

I think Thorens, like Revox, was brought out of bankruptcy by some investment group a few years ago. It is not clear how much the current design and engineering team can be traced back to the Thorens from the 70's and earlier. I have a Thorens TD 126 MKIII and love the TT.

 

Thanks to Plinko and Geoff for their responses. I guess the only sure way to find out if the Garrard 301/401 or the Thorens 124 sound any good is to listen for myself. I just find it fascinating that after all these years there is still a large audiophile following for these ancient idler drive turntables.

And I apologize to LeeS for any threadjacking that may have occurred. Although discussion of the merits of idler wheel technology does fit it with the original question about Thorens turntables, albeit vintage ones.

Regards,

Bill

 

It’s not the only one around, you know!

You migh want to read this:

http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=12864&sct=music

Not every one loves Scout …

Reviewer: Marty Corcoran
”Very disappointed with the Scoutmaster. The tonearm is not connected to the 'table- it just sits loose on the pivot point, wobbling back and forth !? I've been unable to get the thing to play a record all the way through. It jumps over the first few grooves at the start, and mistracks the inner grooves. Forget the "optional" anti-skating- the cheap instuctional pages included are impossible to figure out on this matter. Their cure-all- more tracking force. Why don't I just tape a nickel to the tonearm head, like we did 45 years ago to our Sears-Roebuck record changers ?”

 

I'm in Berlin right now and there's a TD-146 in a little shop down the street for 10 Euros "because it doesn't have cart"..........

If any of you Euro-voltage lads or lasses is interested I can give you more info.

I'm tempted to get it myself and get a voltage converter. But I have a lovely 125...

Ten Euros.....

-s

 

Do it.

 

I'll take it!

 

Lee, As has already been pointed out in this thread the old Thorens company and the new Thorens company are not one in the same. Be sure your friend sees what the new Thorens TT's look like. They do not look like the Thorens TT's of old. (This is not to say the new Thorens TT's are bad, they just look different.) Your friend's emotional attachment to them may include how they looked back then. Just be sure he understands old and new are not the same.

 

Part of a very exclusive club *lol*

Well … I love mine!

It looks like a killer … and sounds like one too

 

Sounds to me like a combination of a poorly set up table and cartridge. And the unfamiliarity of the reviewer with unipivot arms. The Scout/Scoutmaster are some of the best tracking tables I've ever seen/heard. My Scout has NEVER mistracked in the 1.5 years I've owned it--even when I've played some ridiculously warped records--so warped that when I watch the arm, it looks like it's going to be flung off the record surface.

 

That's kinda funny, though -- there's only one review of the Scoutmaster on the Acoustic Sounds web page and it's so negative. I would have to believe that Marty's table was not very well balanced. Or perhaps Marty...

 

You're right...one is not a significant sample size. But this is not the first time I've heard of this happening. I've never heard of a Rega showing up in pieces.