How good are Thorens turntables?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by LeeS, Feb 14, 2007.

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  1. cantona7

    cantona7 Forum Resident

    Well, the anti-skating device that comes with the Scoutmaster is really just a marketing band-aid as far as VPI is concerned. HW's disdain for anti-skating measures is well-documented. I've never had any issue without a real anti-skate on my Scout, but the dealer whom I got it from has complained about it when using a Scout in his home rig. The funny thing is, the same Scout, when used in their showroom, has no anti-skate issues. Weird.
     
  2. Plinko

    Plinko Senior Member

    I would never be one to say those new Thorens aren't nice. I never heard one. Glad you like it! :righton:
     
  3. vinyl anachronist

    vinyl anachronist Senior Member

    Location:
    Lakeside, Oregon
    They are nice. They just aren't made by Thorens. Someone else makes them for Thorens.
     
  4. Steve G

    Steve G Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    well it's in a little shop on Ohrlauerstrasse, south of Wienerstrasse, but aren't you in Ohio?

    if you're in Berlin tho, head on over!

    It looks pretty nice.

    Like I said, I already have a 125 or I'd jump on it...

    I told one DJ dude over here about it, so he may be sniping you tho!

    -s
     
  5. soundQman

    soundQman Senior Member

    Location:
    Arlington, VA, USA
    Do you know who makes them? Do they have their own line of products?
     
  6. vinyl anachronist

    vinyl anachronist Senior Member

    Location:
    Lakeside, Oregon
    The TD800 line is made by Gunther Frohnhoefer, who used to have his own company called Acoustic Signature. They received a good review in Stereophile from Michael Fremer. Then, Frohnhoefer started making them for the new Thorens company. I'm not sure of any of the particulars, but Acoustic Signature no longer seems to be around.
     
  7. pick-me-up

    pick-me-up Straight shooter from S/FI

    Location:
    Sweden
    Sounds interesting

    Nice to hear about this Marc! I knew it was made just about as a kind of Acoustic Signature … but not exactly by who. :)
     
  8. Gugaz

    Gugaz Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lisboa, Portugal
    I don’t mean to digress from the theme, but:

    Sorry for missing these posts earlier.

    To Hi-fi guy:
    Well, the Linn I owned had an "Ittok" arm and a "van den hul DDT II special" MC cartridge and the Lenco I now have, has a "Rega RB300" and an "Ortofon 530 MM" cartridge, so, to be fair, I would say the advantage was on Linn's side... yet even though I never heard the two side by side, I would say the Lenco beats the Linn in every possible way.

    To Bill S:
    I am not an expert but, in layman’s terms, what happens is this:
    When you mount the Lenco in a solid CLD (constrained layer damping) high mass plinth, the vibrations the motor causes are dissipated through the springs that hold it in place (it’s just a matter of going through the path of least resistance). The small amount of vibration that might still get through to the idler wheel doesn’t reach the stylus because the platter is a very heavy one: 4 Kg (9 Lbs)!
     
  9. pick-me-up

    pick-me-up Straight shooter from S/FI

    Location:
    Sweden
    I think they are still in the business

    I am not sure about that … they have their URL still running and I found also a place in Denmark who are selling their TT:s.

    Great looking and very solid players … :)
     
  10. vinyl anachronist

    vinyl anachronist Senior Member

    Location:
    Lakeside, Oregon
    I looked and couldn't find it...do you have a link? They were supposed to be very, very good for the money.
     
  11. HiFi Guy 008

    HiFi Guy 008 Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    Very interesting thread here. One unasked question regarding these Garrard/Lenco/Thorens (Empire too?) idler wheel turntables:

    If this idler wheel mechanism is really the reason these (heavily modded) tables sound so great - better, even, than a modern Linn or VPI - why, then, aren't they being made by someone today?

    One would think, that with all of the ne plus ultra turntables turning up (the Continuum starts at 90k - starts!) why, then, aren't the idler wheel mechanics being implemented in at least one modern, no-expense-spared table?

    Just a thought.
     
  12. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    You may be right, as I came across some advertisement by Acoustic Signature in a recent issue of Stereophile.
     
  13. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Once again, I own a Linn, not a Lenco or similar. But these idler wheel 'tables are intriguing and lots of posters in the long AudiogoN thread are getting good results. So ...

    Let's consider these three problems separately.

    I completely agree that adding the extra idler wheel would, on the face of it, contribute to increased rumble. After all, now we have another wheel turning in a bearing and that will be a source of noise. But consider how the belt drive actions on the sub-platter, tending to put pressure on one side of the bearing. With the Lenco, the idler wheel is vertical, contacting the underneath of the platter. Maybe the more symmetrical application of the turning moment (torque) is less noisy.

    Hey, here's something I just thought of. The Lenco has a huge, heavy platter - and I guess it's in one piece, rather than the AR, Thorens, Linn, Ariston architecture of sub-platter and outer platter. So that could be a big advantage.

    (Those belt-drives that don't employ a sub-platter - there are many modern 'tables like that - don't have this disadvantage).

    Now let's talk about flutter. Traditionally this is meant to refer to fast-cycling, small deviations from true speed at the motor. The faster speed of the motor in an idler wheel turntable is going to give it an advantage over the slower turning motor in a belt drive. This is reasonable.

    Finally, wow. This is a speed reduction of the platter due to forces on the record and cartridge under heavily modulated passages. I think this is an area where the positive contact of the idler wheel clearly is at an advantage to the inherent flexibility in the belt contact. As the forces tend to slow the platter down, the belt can stretch slightly. I can see why fans of the idler wheel design claim that this 'table gets PRaT right.

    So I am saying that the idler-wheel may be worse for rumble, but may have closer tolerances in flutter and wow.

    I don't know - I'm just thinking out loud here. porziob and I obviously disagree, but I'm still raising points that MAY BE in favour of idler-wheels.
     
  14. Plinko

    Plinko Senior Member

    Metralla, one other thing to note about the platter is that it is weighted on the outside rim (you can see where they inserted weights for a flywheel along the platter's rim). It's an excellent feature only seen on high end turntables. That platter on the Lenco is a huge asset but you have to use the right mat. Obviously, the platter contributes to the elimination of wow and flutter that one can hear. I already mentioned some other advantages in previous posts (namely, the motor). From my experience, your instincts are largely correct.

    Hi fi guy, Loricraft makes the Garrard 501...an extremely high end table. Besides, at the same time and with the same logic, wouldn't you be asking yourself why restoration and proper plinthing of these tables is so popular today among serious audiophiles? One thing is for sure, you're not going get a modern table with a great motor like the Papst used in some idlers or any other high torque motor. The bearing in these tables are usually excellent as well. We're talking about the golden age of mechanical engineering here.

    Porzoi, that would be a good point but Garrard's wow, flutter, and rumble measurements were very good even back then. Certainly rumble and resonance is an issue when an idler is not in a proper plinth but the wow and flutter on these tables is truly excellent.

    I can say for those who haven't heard, disregarding the idler without hearing a properly restored and plinthed idler would be making a huge mistake. For those who have, I would respect their opinion (and I also would never be able to understand it) but would disagree.

    from world designs - not affiliated, just thought it was a nice, brief writeup (http://www.world-designs.co.uk/slatedeck.html) :

    So why did belt drive catch on in the first place? To understand this we have to look at the history of hi-fi equipment sales in the '60s and early '70s. High quality hi-fi equipment was sold by specialist hi-fi shops who offered a complete service to the customer. This included housing the customer's choice of equipment in a smart wooden cabinet, of which there was a choice of styles. In order to accommodate a range of turntable 'motor units' (as they were then called), the suppliers of these cabinets utilised thin, plywood motor boards which could be cut easily with a fretsaw.

    Now consider the effect of mounting a heavyweight turntable like the Garrard 301/401 on such a thin, resonant board. And imagine the compounding effect that putting such a resounding board and motor in a wooden cabinet. What you have is an efficient low frequency resonator excited by motor noise, feedback and building subsonic interference. No wonder these units rumbled!

    If one refers to the manufacturer's recommendations for mounting, however, these cast a very different view of achieving the best sonic performance. The original Garrard 301 manual, for example, recommends a 'substantial' motor board.
     
  15. Vinyl-Addict

    Vinyl-Addict Groovetracer Manufacturer

    Location:
    USA
    You offer some good points Plinko but I don't believe the mechanical engineering was better back then. Keep in mind there were no CNC machining centers or CAD/CAM systems in the 60's so the design and manufacturability concept was much more involved.
    I think the reason a lot of the parts in the old idlers were so robust was because light/strong alloys were very expensive but cast iron was very common so that is one reason a lot of people say they were "overbuilt". :)
     
  16. Plinko

    Plinko Senior Member

    yeah, you're right. I'm just thinking of how everything was built back then. just an example: we had a 10 year old fridge that had door handles falling off and other problems but the 50+ year old fridge in the basement is still going strong! none of this necessarily means that something can't be made better today.

    I think the Lenco platter is a zinc alloy. Not sure what the plate is made of though.
     
  17. jligon

    jligon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Peoria, IL
    Yes, we may have the capability but since everything is now dictated by the bottom line, we rarely see comparable quality products today. "Why make something really good when we can cut all of these corners, charge a little bit less but make much more profit?"

    It's embarrassing. I was reading a book on hi-fi audio equipment from 1972 and they were discussing the various options the buyer had for where to purchase equipment. The point that stood out to me was..."do not, under any circumstances, buy stereo equipment from one of those all-in-one appliance/TV/stereo shops."

    So where are we 35 years later? Nothing but all-in-one appliance/TV/stereo places to choose from. And the quality today is probably worse than the stuff they were carrying back then.

    Now I'm sure there are examples of companies today that are sparing no expense when it comes to their components...but I've always labored under the impression that a turntable should not cost as much as a house.
     
  18. HiFi Guy 008

    HiFi Guy 008 Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    That's what I was trying to convey: why are the spare-no-expense models (and there are quite a few) not using the idler wheel mechanism? We are certainly in the golden age of something when a TT can start at 90k.

    http://www.audiofederation.com/catalog/turntables/index.htm

    One of the reasons for my interest is that I'm on the verge of plunking down my cash for a TT and are considering the VPI/Rega/used Linn and vintage idler wheel spectrum of options.

    Another option - my parents have an old idler wheel record player stashed away (and I remember the incredible torque the thing had - almost broke my 3 year old finger when I was learning how to play records) but it's MONO - and I'm considering having it rebuilt as a stereo TT if that's possible.:shh:
     
  19. Tony Plachy

    Tony Plachy Senior Member

    Location:
    Pleasantville, NY
    Jon, Not to get off topic here, but I grew up in St. Louis, MO which is not too far from you and I know there are still true hi-fi shops there (and of course home theater as well). Here in the tri-state area there are many hi-fi shops.
     
  20. Tony Plachy

    Tony Plachy Senior Member

    Location:
    Pleasantville, NY
    Plinko, FWIW, I just bought a PS Audio Power Plant Premier and the thing is built like a Sherman Tank. Since I have only had it about a month I cannot say for sure it will last 50 years but it sure looks like it will. :righton:
     
  21. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    That was a stretch.
     
  22. jligon

    jligon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Peoria, IL
    Yes, there is one left in Peoria. There might be one in Champaign and Bloomington. And, obviously, cities the size of Chicago and St. Louis will have a number of places.
    But what was there 30 years ago? Four or five (or more) in Peoria alone. There's definitely been a shift towards the all-in-one discount places in lieu of the specialty salons.
     
  23. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    The types of audio equipments carried at BB and CC are just bad news for the state of the audio industry. I am glad I have never bought one piece of audio equipment from either.
     
  24. Chad Etchison

    Chad Etchison New Member

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    The only way to make judgement on the re plinthed Lenco/Garrard 301/401 as engineered by Jean Nantais is to hear one with the same arm and cartridge set-up as a belt driven TT.

    Nantais has built two of these for me and he encourages people to DIY if possible; the results are astounding. I had a modern belt-drive, with plinth and motor isolation, it wasn't even close, the Lenco annhilated it.

    There is no rumble, we must open our minds on the idler wheel, there are other ways of achieving musical satisfaction. All of these people can't be wrong, many discerning audiophiles with years of practical experience. People like: Joesph Esmirilla from JE Labs, Jean Nantais, Sakuma, Shindo Labs, Lorricraft and the list goes on...
     
  25. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Thank you.
     
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