How I Transformed My Home Listening Experience

That is not the case at all. using an EQ to boost treble will not achieve the same results as can be achieved by the addition of a super-tweeter.

EQ adjustments are not balanced and even in natural frequency response curves, the way a super-tweeter would be.

The simple adjustments on their super-tweeter's, adjusting the crossover point and the amount of HF attenuation will allow these to match just about any existing speaker system.

I find that most modern tower speaker's that are built primarily for HT use, have too aggressive forwarding sounding tweeters as it is.

But there are many speaker manufacturer's who take a more lay'd back approach, like Polk or Wharfedale and some who have speakers like these, may want a bit more "sparkle" in the HF.

Those individuals who have age related hearing loss in the HF, for example, may also want to add a bit of brightness to the top end.

 

I wonder how much treble boost lsim ring tweeter can stand. I can get additional HF spark using either tone control on my parasound hint or via software eq if I needed but would like to know whether super tweeter able to produce something special beyond lsim tweeter range

 

Interesting that you made this last post.

I just happened to be thinking about your Aerial 10T's.



First of all, they are no where near as tall as your LSiM707's with their tweeter's being much lower to the ground and maybe more at an optimum listening height while seated.

With the 707's, they are 50" tall, with the tweeter's being at the top of the cabinet. Maybe this would place the tweeter's a bit higher than optimal when seater?



Notice where the HF horns are located on these Klipsch legacy La Scala's, which have 35" tall cabinets.

You can see that the HF horns are a a perfect head level when seated on the sofa next to them.



Now, if we look at the Polk LSiM707's in this same arrangement, notice how tall they sit, when compared to the La Scala's.



Secondly, your Aerial 10T's, have a wonderful design feature that more manufacturer's should incorporate into their speaker designs.

That being, the top, which houses the midrange and HF driver's, is separate and apart from the bass bass cabinet down below.

And... the mid/HF cabinet has the ability to be rotated, affording the ability of the listener to direct the more narrow dispersion of the higher frequency sound, directly toward the listening position.



So there are some physical differences between the Ariel's and the Polk's, that may account for the reduced top end, as a listener.

 

I just auditioned a set of 703s for about a month. I was able to have the tweeters at perfect listening level on my variable height stands. The Polk speakers have very rolled off highs especially at lower volumes. You don't really notice it once you get used to the sound, but in a side by side to another speaker it is quite apparent. In the end the sound was too relaxed for my taste. The Polk LSiM may be just about the most perfect candidate for a super tweeter.

 

I can comment on adding the super tweeter VS simply boosting high frequencies via equalization. The presentation is just different, and it will take a speaker designer to explain why! I can tell you this, with my computer audio, I use a program called JRiver
Media Center, which allows all sorts of music manipulation through digital signal processing, things like equalization, parametric equalization, effects which include environment, virtual subwoofer, surround field and several others. I can boost 3, 6, 12 ,14 and 16 KHz frequencies, but the results are not as pleasing as the addition of the super tweeters. Likewise, I can boost the lower frequencies as well, but again, it's just not the same as having (2) subwoofers in play. I think you should give the tweeters a test run, they allow you 60 days to decide. They really do add a sparkle of realism I just did not hear before. The only harshness I have heard is when I played some old poorly remastered Duke Ellington from the 60's on the Jazz Heritage label. Other than that, all has been improved by the inclusion of the tweeters. One thing I did find out with these speakers, a beautiful sparkling high end is as important or more important than the low end. I hope some other members of the forum take a test run with the this product and report back, I was really surprised at the results.

 

Then again, there are those who want to avoid digital signal processing to achieve EQ, preferring to remain purely in the analog domain (after the system DAC, if any).

Other than my DAC and surround sound processor, I never use any DLP, never will.

Kind of the whole point in what I do.

 

Larry, you posted some old ragged looking 10Ts, let me help!

 

I'll jump in here to state that it may come down to the differing dispersion characteristics of dome tweeters vs. flat ribbon tweeters. Domes tend to get more beamy in the top octave. Do ribbons have a wider dispersion from 10 to 20 kHz.?

 

I'm really trying to talk myself out of these but your enthusiasm is slowly wearing me down. My better half already believes I have a "speaker" issue so even at $300, these will not come easy.
Still a bit concerned about the stability part as I'd be placing them on 705's which don't have the weight or width of your 707's.

 

Larry, you got my curiosity fired up. I was curious just how high the center point of the tweeter is in the 707's, the answer is 42" from floor level. In the seated position on my couch, my ears are 42.5" from the floor, darn, that is close to perfect isn't it?
The super tweeter is 8.5" above center line on my Polk Ring Radiator tweeter, but remember, the 3.25" Polypropylene midrange speaker is just above the Ring Radiator, now sandwiched between the Polk tweeter and the add on flat ribbon super tweeter, which is just above Polk's 1" Ring Radiator.

Below all that is the 6.5" polypropylene midrange/woofer driver. So we have three separate drivers covering midrange and high frequencies a 6.5" midrange/ midbass driver, a 3.25" midrange driver, and a 1" tweeter. It seems Polk placed a great deal of emphasis on midrange frequencies, which could account for the perception the speakers are a bit warm. I have seen this before when comparing two way design speakers with three way design speakers. The more robust midrange can give the perception of less high frequencies, when in fact the high frequencies are indeed there but are not as in your face as with say a two way design. The Ring Radiator in this Polk system has plenty of output, but remember, it's working in harmony with a 3.25" midrange right above it and a 6.5" midrange/ midbass woofer driver immediately below it. This super tweeter is designed to bring sparkle and clarity to those frequencies above 8KHz, and it is really doing it. As you know, we want the drivers to blend as flawlessly as possible. Right now I am at 8 KHz with a 3 dB attenuation. I could possibly set a bit higher, but I'm still listening and adjusting at this point. I will find the best sweet spot.

 

I could be wrong, but I do believe the angle is the same, the width should be no concern to you at all, as either the 705 or 707's are plenty wide, I have just slightly over 2.5" on either side of the tweeters. I don't mean to be over the top, but they are just so nice, look nice, beautifully designed, and wow, do they cut the mustard! With the settings configured correctly, they can benefit almost any speakers system, from the modest bookshelf system to the largest floorstander, like the LSiM 707 OR 705!

 

This is a really good thought, but let me just say....

I had the Polk 703s (same tweeter, mid and mid-bass as the 707) and B&W CDM1NTs connected to the same amp. When you switched on both sets of speakers it was pretty easy to hear what parts were boosted (coming from both sets of speakers). The higher frequencies on the Polk's just aren't there. You can also remove the jumper on the speaker and drive just the tweeter to compare. B&W places a lot of emphasis on the high frequencies, many would say too much, but this makes it very easy to hear the difference.

I just don't think the highs coming from the Polk have anything to do with height, it was a conscious design decision (IMO) to emphasize the mid and bass and attenuate the highs. This creates a smooth, warm pleasant sound that is almost incapable of causing listening fatigue. I don't think the sound can really be changed with DSP or EQ, as (IMO) it is a result of the drivers, crossover, and cabinet design, and is the character of those particular speakers.

That is why I found the super tweeters to be an interesting idea. With the two sets of speakers running, you could easily perceive what the B&Ws were filling in, and what the Polks were adding, but obviously combining two so different speakers was never going to be usable. But if you can add the missing highs to the Polks without compromising the coherency (already not the best) and imaging (very good indeed) you may end up with a great deal of loudspeaker for not much money. If I had read your post before I returned the 703s I likely would have tried the super tweeters. The total set would have come in at only $900, a very modest price for good sounding speakers.

 

I don't really find the highs to be "attenuated" as such. As an owner of many Polk speaker's and have listened to them early on at friend's houses, they are not bright speaker's. Polk always seem to take the more mellow approach. The slightly smaller LSiM705's, are a similar design.

Both have the bass speaker's and ports at the bottom of the cabinet's and the HF's drivers closest to the top, as most tower speaker designs do.



There is only so much room in the cabinet for the driver's and their respective enclosure's.

Above the oval woofer's/sub-woofer's is a mid/woofer. The midrange driver is actually on the very top and the ring radiator is below it, to position it closer to listening height.

The 707 is a 99-lb. speaker that is designed to pressurize a moderately large listening room with bass. So, yes, there is a lot of bass, that would likely overwhelm a smaller listening room, but in the correct size large room the speaker is very even and well balanced overall.

My listening room was about 450 sq. ft., and the 707 plays nicely in a largish room like that.

Of course you can alter the overall sound signature using DSP or EQ. That is what EQ and DSP does.

Not that you would want to or experience any positive gain from doing so.

You would never get it sounding balanced and only end up throwing the entire sound signature off.

The manufacture engineered tham this way for a reason. You almost never want to mess with how a manufacturer sets up the product.

My Altec A7's have a natural HF rolloff, although the manufacture denies it.

So, instead of trying to monkey around in the digital realm making them do something that they were not built to do, I add JBL super-tweeter's to further enhance the natural top end that is already present.

Because there is a properly designed custom built crossover driving the super-tweeter's. They blend in effortlessly and are not overly bright.

 

If your listening standard is B&W then they sound attenuated even cold, of course if your listening standard is Polk then the B&Ws sound bright even harsh. Half a dozen of one, 6 of the other. Attenuated in context.

Yes, the 703s I recently auditioned have the same top layout.

When I originally set the speakers up for comparison the 703 was at optimal listening height, the B&W was too high, I ended up changing the B&W stands to level them properly.

I think in the end we are not really disagreeing here. DSP and EQ can change the sound, but you will not likely be happy with the results, at least not when the changes would be so aggressive. The sound is mellow and rich by design and I don't think trying to brighten or liven up the sound via DSP and EQ would net good results.

 

piqued my interest

 

I have legacy Klipsch La Scala's and the Zu Omen Definition's MKI, pictured above.

They'll give B&W's a run for their money.

The thing about bright speaker's is they sound dynamic and good, that is, until listening fatigue sets in.

Since I would listen to music all of the time, my preference is simply to limit bright sounding speaker's.

Plus, as we age, our ability to tolerate loud bright sounding music decreases.

I could listen to loud, bright music for much longer periods of time in my 20's and 30's, than I can now, at sixty four.

But, I had Altec Lansing A7's back when I was sixteen. I liked to listen to loud music. Even then, I kept the amp with the volume control right by where I sat. I never just turned music up and left it there, I would always modulate the volume, so as to avoid listening fatigue and hearing damage. It worked.

 

My main speakers are Tannoy, my office speakers are B&W, my bedroom speakers are Klipsch, and I have a pair of Zus coming.

At sixteen(ish) I had a really nice Onkyo integrated and a set of Realistic Mach 2s. The setup was quite loud, and I loved it.

In my 20s the house had stacks and amps, all pro gear. Our neighbors must have hated us. Bad enough when your playing loud music at parties, even worse when your just playing music with friends. At least we didn't have a drum kit.

In my 30s. I had a Toyota truck with JL amps and stupid loud woofers, mounted face to face (isobaric) to achieve unneeded levels of volume. The drop on The Chemical Brothers Under the Influence was insane. The only thing even close is a top fuel dragster. It's amazing I can hear at all.

Lucky I still have good hearing for my age. Knock on wood.

 

My friend, so you will know, the 703s can still be purchased for the "give away" price, I really don't know why they have not sold completely out. It is my understanding the factory was planning one final run of the 703, 705 and 707s and that was going to be the end of the road. You could call your supply person and get the deal on the 703s, I'm pretty sure, add the super tweeter and NEVER look back, as you will be cooking on the front burner!

 

One thing is for sure, I would "really" like to know how the 703 would compare to your B&W after the super tweeter is installed. I would try a test run at -3 dB and set at 8 KHz, and dial the frequencies UP from that point, but start there and see what you think. I have not involved my 703s yet, so I can't tell you, but I know they would benefit from the addition, no question in my mind. It's apparent the B&W is not a candidate for this upgrade with the tweeter and slopped top, but you can really play doctor with the 703s. Oh, and your color match is spot on, with the darker finished 703, YES !

 

What kind of speakers are we talking about, let's see a pic!

 

why not. sometimes I switch tone control (with treble at 1 hour) on my hint on to bring a little bit more life to HF

 

Interesting, wasn't aware of that product. I wonder if they work best with speakers that match or fall below their rated 90dB sensitivity lest they not be loud enough? Or does it not matter much?

 

I'm also an old geezer whose hearing ain't what it used to be. I'm curious, when you adjust the sound to cater to YOUR 'treble deficiencies', what it sounds like to people whose hearing hasn't been damaged by age. We could fill a page with words describing systems suffering from 'too much' treble. I understand its adjustable but I remain curious.

 

I would like to but given my location it's not that easy option to me

 

It would be really hard to say, because there is so much variation in hearing impairment.

Being sixty four, my frequency response is rolled off as a biological thing, but I still find that harsh HF tones, are still bothersome.

As we age, we are going to start loosing our ability to hear at high frequencies. Men will do this at twice the rate of women, that is why you will hear a man say "my wife has a golden ear". Still more men served in the military and worked in factories and ran jackhammers and other machines without having the benefit of hearing protection, so you can attribute a lot of men's hearing loss to being occupational related.

But, that is just part of the picture, check out this chart which shows age related hearing loss at frequencies up to 8k for both men and women.



It's not just about what you can't hear above 10k - 12k.

As we age, we can still hear frequencies of 8k, but not as well as when we were younger. The graph on the left tells me that at 60, my sensitivity at 8k is about 35dB down from where it was when I was 20. At 2k, I'm about 15 dB down (at least, that is what the chart says.

People often say "my wife has golden hearing, she hears things that I can't hear at all". This is not an urban legend myth but is actual fact. In women, they loose their HF hearing at about half the rate that men do. A woman, the same age as me will only loose about 20dB at 8k, compared to my 35 dB loss.

The thing is, I perceive music that same way as when I was a teenager. It doesn't sound any different to me. It would seem like I would notice the roll off? Maybe, the changes happen so slowly, over a long period of time, that I just adjust to it, but it doesn't seem like I have to make adjustments, things still sound the same.

Music still sounds the same as it always did. In the top octave, between 10-kHz. and 20-kHz. there are not fundamental natural tones, all there is up there are harmonic overtones.

There really isn't anything up at 14-kHz. and 18-kHz. that contributes to the sounds that we experience in any meaningful way.

Even with a super-tweeter, there is plenty of "sparkle" between 6-kHz. and 12-kHz. And this can be quite audible, even with moderate age related hearing loss. Most of the "hearing loss" in these frequencies is not a complete loss (except at a well advanced age), but a decreasing sensitivity.

This kind of "loss" can be compensated for by brightening thing in these frequencies up a bit.

I do note that with loud HF music, hearing fatigue will set in more quickly, than in my younger days.

In addition, today, I am more sensitive to harsh HF music that I was in my younger days. I would have thought that it would be the other way around.

But, I can see someone who has significant hearing damage, needing this over emphasized treble boost in those certain high frequencies.