How I Transformed My Home Listening Experience

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Litejazz53, May 18, 2019.

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  1. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Comb-filtering with multiple tweeters is a very common issue according to what I've researched. Allegedly, almost all speakers with front-firing super tweeters exhibit this behavior to at least a small extent. It's because the wavelengths are so short. It can be mostly mitigated with very careful alignment and crossover design. If the super tweeter has first-order crossovers (which wouldn't surprise me with the Aperions), even with a 16kHz cut-in point, there can be very audible cancellations occurring at 8kHz. Such condition is what I suspect I was hearing last night. When I played them at 14kHz, then set them to "off," the sparkle was reduced but the soundstage snapped into better focus and suddenly the overall treble seemed about 3db louder. I suppose the new impedance curve could also be making more of a tone control out of my tube amp.

    I just gotta get my new RTA mic setup and I'll figure out what's really going on. The 16kHz setting sounds good, but hopefully I can get a near flat response by merely adjusting placement depth.
     
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  2. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    After many listening trials with two pairs of speakers, I've decided to return the Aperion tweeters. In each case, regardless of setting, they were robbing Peter to pay Paul. Everytime I had them on, even at 16KHz, there was very audible detriment to the upper midrange/lower treble. Basically, I was gaining top-end air and sparkle at the expense of midrange presence and focus.

    Measurements with REW and a MiniDSP UMIK-1 confirmed what I was hearing and lead me to believe these supertweeters use a first-order filter (no doubt for cost and space). This means a 6db/octave slope. So even at the 16kHz setting, there can still be substantial cancellation/comb-filtering with the primary tweeters at 8kHz. What I was seeing most often was big spikes and dips starting near 7kHz.

    Anyhow, they were a fun experiment and I'm glad I tried them, especially since they were risk-free through Amazon. I can understand why some will prefer them in their system but they're just not for me.
     
  3. Xarkkon

    Xarkkon Would you like a Custom Title?

    Location:
    Asia
    Thanks for the feedback! I love the ribbon tweeter on my Axis FLS and thought getting a super tweeter for my Buchardt S400s would help the highs somewhat. Reading what you've encountered, I'm less likely to try them out as I don't have the ability to test and return from where I'm at (I think). Pity it didn't work out!
     
  4. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    A better implementation is to have the super-tweeter firing rearward, to the wall. That eliminates the comb-filtering problems. Of course, then you'd be facing the speaker wires which doesn't make for a nice aesthetic.

    The Buchardts having a wave-guide tweeter near the bottom of the cabinet, might go far in reducing comb-filtering, though I bet there will still be some audible detriment. In order for a speaker with multiple tweeters on the baffle to perform well, it really must be designed that way from the ground up.
     
  5. Xarkkon

    Xarkkon Would you like a Custom Title?

    Location:
    Asia
    read firing? that's something i could live with. hmm......

    ahhh! here I am trying to reduce my audio expenditure and thanking you for it... and there you are giving me more options to spend it with! :D
     
  6. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.

    If you don't mind looking at the ugly rear of the super tweeters while listening
     
  7. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    I have not experienced what Helom has experienced with my Polk 707's or 703's. After buying the first pair, I turned around and bought a second pair, absolutely love them. This is what they look like on my speakers.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I have my doubts about human hearing being able to discern comb filtering at the frequencies that super tweeters operate.

    Also, our hearing is sensitive to the effects of comb filtering on the horizontal plane, due to the cancelation of signal producing timing issues.

    On the vertical plane, our ears have a very difficult time dealing with out of phase information.
     
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  9. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    It was night and day in my experience, with multiple speaker sets. The measurements bear it out. Regardless of the mic placement, it measured huge peaks and dips. I'm talking dips of 10db magnitude at frequencies of only 7kHz. This didn't change much with the tweeter moved fore or aft or the mic moved up or down. It was as though my amp sprouted a midrange tone control and it was cranked far CCW, along with a boost of the treble control. I'm confident I could repeat these results in most systems with these particular super tweeters.

    This phenomenon is avoidable but not with 1st-order filters like the Aperions have. I can imagine some wouldn't notice it if their speakers are close to walls, or there is a TV nearly flush with the baffles, as imaging precision is greatly compromised with such placement, unless maybe it's a horn speaker.
     
  10. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I'm trying to understand this. But I don't understand a few things, like the "midrange tone control", for one.

    I get the comb filtering, but our ears aren't able to redilly localize frequencies at 7-kHz. up, where you would use a super-tweeter, such as this one. But even without the ability to localize sound, comb filtering can certainly come into play.

    The thing is, that the effects of comb filtering come into play laterally across the sound field. Our ears are not sensitive to its effects on a vertical plane.

    As Litejazz53 has the super-tweeters mounted on top of the same LSiM707's that I have, he is not experiencing the comb filtering effects as you are?
     
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  11. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    It's sort of akin to the claim that no bass frequencies below 80Hz can be localized. Experienced listeners know that's not true. A 10db dip at 7kHz is going to be audible unless the system setup is already compromise with phase issues from positioning.

    The midrange comment refers to the suckouts in the upper midrange/lower treble which I consider between 4kHz and 8kHz. These tweeters boost the upper treble at the expense of the lower treble.

    I too had the super tweeters positioned on top of the speakers, speakers that produce exceptional measurements on their own.

    Don't get me wrong, the super tweeters make for an interesting and/or different listen. I get why many would hear them as an improvement.
     
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  12. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Low frequencies at 80-Hz. definitely can be localized, but as you descend lower it becomes increasingly difficult to localize them. By the time that you reach 40-Hz. you can not localize them at all.

    Next to the Altec A7 cabinet, is a UCS-1 15" passive commercial sub, powered by a 1,600-Watt Crown amplifier.

    The sub is used both with the Altec's and the front main LSiM707 speakers, for both HT and stereo.

    You can pound out bass through this sub, which is electronically crossed over at 40-Hz. and below by the HT processor and you can not tell where the bass is coming from. Even if you get up close and position your head to the bottom front of the bass horn, you can still barely tell that the bass is coming from that cabinet. The bass can be heard and felt from anywhere in the room.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    I should jump in here and just say with some of the music I have heard for many years, Canadian Brass, many Jazz CDs and SACDs, many Reference and Telarc classical recordings, these little tweeters just enhance everything in the upper frequencies, I hear instruments like I did not experience them before in a very good way. I don't doubt the little super tweeters did not work for you and you sent them back, but for me, the Polk's have a nice rosbust midrange and these speakers are just adding a brilliance and clarity in the highest frequencies that has been for me just so nice, real, detailed, I really do just love them or I would not have bought a second pair. If I were someone that was considering a super tweeter, your comments would absolutely scare me off, so my hope is that if someone is looking to add a super tweeter to their speakers, they will at least give these a try, as there is a 60 day no questions asked return policy. The company has to be pretty confident in their product to offer that return option for 60 days. So, hopefully my solid endorsement for the product will balance your negative comments and whoever looks at these reviews will try the 60 day trial, with nothing to loose, I hope so, as I really do enjoy my two sets, and let me say, with my Polks 707's and 703's, I just do not hear any midrange sucked out, the overall clarity of the presentation is just so very listenable. These tweeters offer variable frequency adjustments as well as volume attenuation which is so helpful with most any speaker you use the super tweeters with. Most of the super tweeters I have seen do not have the adjustability this product has and the other products I have seen are so much more expensive. :righton:
     
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  14. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    I can understand why many like them. They didn't necessarily make my system sound worse, it was just a matter of trade-offs.

    There are many audio configurations that sound great but don't measure well. Had I purchased these tweeters a couple years ago and perched them atop my old Silver 8s, I'm sure I would have kept them, however, I've become accustomed to a very different type of sound and speaker positioning and in my setup there are definite tradeoffs.

    I agree that folks should try them if they feel so inclined, but I suggest they also perform some careful A/B comparisons, as I suspect those who position their speakers well-away from first reflection points will experience what I did.

    The following video is a good demonstration for why super-tweeters often don't work as intended:



    It's worth noting that I don't believe the info in that video shouldn't be taken as gospel, because some manufacturers do manage to avoid the problem. However, the speakers that include them successfully and still measure well do not do so by using 1st-order filters.
     
  15. bamaaudio

    bamaaudio Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    Mine was really simple. I mostly just quit focusing so much on gear and mastering and began listening to the 'big picture' of the music again like when I was kid hearing stuff over the radio or on a tape or cd in a portable player. Most of the time this is without speakers or even any kind of dedicated amplification. It's not ideal and it's far different than the 'audiophile' days of my 20s but it's also kind of nice to not nitpick over the details.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
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  16. Truth Serum

    Truth Serum Active Member

    Location:
    Rockingham, Va
    I’m new to this forum, but I’ve been an avid audiophile since my teens. I find this thread fascinating because I have read of the merits of super tweeters for a while. Most of the after market units are far too expensive and not nearly as adjustable as these. I will be ordering a pair this week. I will convey my findings.

    My problem is going to be the physical implementation and integration with my speakers. I have electrostatics that are 8’ tall and almost 3’ wide. I’m going to have to get creative with placement!
     
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  17. muskrat

    muskrat Well-Known Member

    Location:
    l.b.,ca
    This was brought up when CDs came out, hiss and woosh missing made music sound sterile.
     
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  18. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    I cross the tweeters at different points depending on what I am listening to, which is such an advantage with the product, as it is so darn adjustable, which is a big advantage.
     
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  19. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

  20. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    I have ordered the new full ribbon super tweeters, can't wait to hear these new additions, yes! :wiggle:
     
  21. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Who from?
     
  22. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    Ordered from Aperion, should be on their way in a few days, can't wait to review them. I am so sold on the originals, they are so nice, and I have really enjoyed the ability to change roll off frequencies and volume, it so easy to accommodate any music source.

    Aperion Audio Aluminum Ribbon Super Tweeter Speaker Pair Gloss Black
     
  23. emailists

    emailists Forum Resident

    Location:
    NYC
    I have a pair of enigmacoustic sopranino permanently charged electrostatic supertweeters I use to good effect.

    Sometimes I run then rearward facing, and have been thinking of picking up an additional set of less expensive super tweeters, and recently got an email from Aperion showing the tweeters.

    Has anyone run them rearward facing ?

    My main speakers (TAD’s) are about 4-5 feet off the back wall. Also based on my intended usage, would there be a benefit to getting the aluminum version at twice the price?

    BTW when I have tested rearward facing speakers I would tape a cd to the wall and bounce a laser off it that is aligned with the tweeter, so the reflection hits the listening position. I know it probably would be best to have diffusion on the rear wall, but it’s used as a projection surface for watching movies.
     
  24. Truth Serum

    Truth Serum Active Member

    Location:
    Rockingham, Va
    When I first got my Aperion super tweeters I had a difficult time integrating them with my Acoustats. I tried them forward firing on top of the speakers, but the comb filtering was too pronounced. I ended up angling them out at about a 45 degree angle to catch the reflections off the side walls. I have since moved my system to the basement and a much less lively environment. I now have them on stands a bit behind and between the speakers with a slight upward tilt towards the listening position. This is really giving good results!
    [​IMG]
     
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  25. Truth Serum

    Truth Serum Active Member

    Location:
    Rockingham, Va
    I tried them rear facing and did not like the results. I did a lot of experimenting yesterday and ended up with a +2db and 8k crossover setting. Pretty aggressive. I dialed back the attenuation and could easily hear the integration with the electrostatic main speakers diminish. I always used them as dialed back as I could for a subtle effect, but this setting yields wonderful results.

    Unlike many super tweeters that only operate above 20khz, these are instantly noticeable when engaged. I can stand between them and turn them on and off while someone is in the listening position. 100% of the time they can identify when I engage or disengage the super tweeters. I love the sound of my electrostatics, but the air and delicacy when using the super tweeter is uncanny. No sibilance or harshness, even at the more pronounced settings. I think I am going to upgrade to the aluminum ribbon this week. If anyone has tried the aluminum version, let me know your experience.
     
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