How many times MC cart can be rebuild?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Old Zorki II, Jun 20, 2019.

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  1. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher Thread Starter

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    Well, not much to add )).
    Rebuilding MC cartridges is not a cheap affair, but apparently cartridge can be restored to almost original state and ready to go another 1000 or so hours.
    But after it - can it be rebuild again and again - or at certain point cartridge itself will start to deteriorate?
     
  2. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Good question, I'd like to find out the answer myself.
     
  3. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    That depends upon who does it. Most re-tip services are just that; they cut off the cantilever and glue on another with a new stylus. That's not a true rebuild. Some say they can do more, but I haven't seen it and they cannot know and likely do not have access to the exact spec components otherwise. So it's effectively a patch or a mod. In these instances, you can't know or be assured of how the suspension components will hold up. I suspect that all that can be warrantied will be the work done, so if there is any other mode of failure, it's on you.

    If on the other hand, you go with the manufacturer of the cartridge or their representative for a rebuild or trade-in, then you'll get the whole cartridge renewed or replaced with new, original spec components. Many times there will be an advancement in the product which will be available to you at the time you trade-in and so not only will you get a fully new product, but the latest version. With a trade-in where one is applicable, there is also the elimination of a waiting period. Either way, when you go with the original maker, you typically get full warranty as they have basically supplied an entirely new product and had full control of the process without third party involvement. Since this will be a new or effectively new complete product, it should have at least the same life expectancy of the original.
    -Bill
     
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  4. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I can see doing it with more expensive carts where you certainly want to preserve its original sound signature - something you paid good money for, in the first place. But, with modest carts, like a Zu Denon 103, or stock Denon 301/II that I have, sending it back to the maker is not an option. So, my logic is: to buy a new cart is $400 - $500, to have it re-tipped is $200-$250. If I can have it accomplished even once, with good results - it's already worth it. Besides, you can also "upgrade" these carts with better cantilever materials and/or better stylus profiles, essentially turning into better carts. At least as an experiment it's worth it to me.
     
  5. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher Thread Starter

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    Thank you, Bill, for a detailed reply.
    I am not in disagreement with you, however manufacture retip service is very expensive, often not far from simply a new cart. And often it is a brand new cart, so it a bit different affair altogether.
    For example (using online retailer prices)
    Dynavector 20X2
    New $1150
    Retip $920

    Clearaudio Stradivari
    New $4000
    Retip $2400

    And so on..
    Third party retipping services are way more affordable.
     
  6. Optimize

    Optimize Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU
    Great Bill.
    For some reason your post made me think of
    Retreaded tires. Same rubber in the core (like the cantaliver suspension) that needs to go another lifetime of use until it wear out again.
    I believe that they do not Retreaded tires a second time to be used for a third time..

    That raises the question how many hours the damping system in the cartridge manage. :confused:
     
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  7. Sedwards

    Sedwards Senior Member

    I guess soundsmith is the exception. For example, they'll rebuild their $4K Paua for $550. I know when my Paua starts to get worn rebuilding is the route I will go. And the only limitation they seem to have on the number of times you can get a rebuild/retip is if the internal suspension or coils are damaged.
     
  8. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher Thread Starter

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    Thank you, that was pretty much my question ))).
     
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  9. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher Thread Starter

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    Yes, that is real "rebuild" (not a trade-in per se as with other manufactures). So question is how long suspension or coils generally lasts?
     
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  10. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    So what's a true rebuild, and how is it advantageous over simply replacing the part that has worn out?
     
  11. Sedwards

    Sedwards Senior Member

    Yeah, that I don't know. I guess it'll vary from
    Here is how soundsmith describes their rebuilding vs retipping process and the advantages of one over the other. Their rebuilding is described as "full replacement of the complete cantilever/stylus assembly."
     
  12. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I can see that. I guess what throws me off here is KT88's description of retipping (vs. rebuilding) is replacing the entire cantilever, which is what I consider it as well. There seems to be an insinuation that a "rebuild" involves work beyond the stylus/cantilever and actually delves into the cartridge itself and impacts the suspension, coils, etc. I'm no expert, but I can't see how this would be necessary unless a very old cartridge is involved.
     
  13. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    Yes, but that wasn't what you had asked. You used the term "rebuild" a couple of times, not retip, and I understood the question was how many times can it be done on a single cartridge. Sorry, but I thought I had covered both scenarios for you rather thoroughly. Costs will vary by who does the work, the level of service provided, and the cartridge undergoing the service. Rebuild and retip are not the same, although they seem to get used interchangeably here. The cost of such services is another question. You have to weigh the associated costs against your desired outcome, and your budget.
    -Bill
     
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  14. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    That's not a rebuild is. Their full quote is "...full replacement of the complete cantilever/stylus assembly, as well as retipping services only. Although more costly, retipping only is by far the preferred method of restoration for certain high end cartridges where the cantilever is intact and just the diamond has been lost or warn." That indicates no work is done to the suspension. It also indicates that a true retip, where only the stylus (diamond) is removed from the cantilever and a new diamond stylus is installed in that original cantilever in its place, is more expensive that their standard service. They call the expensive diamond replacement "retipping", which it essentially is. They do not say rebuild anywhere in their description, because that isn't what they do. Replacement of the complete cantilever/stylus assembly is what I described originally as what most aftermarket / third party services do. They chop off the original cantilever as it exits the original suspension, and glue a replacement cantilever (a sort of prosthetic) to that. This replacement cantilever includes a new stylus. That would be OK for a cheap cartridge, perhaps an upgrade if the new stylus was finer and the subject cartridge was relatively new.
    -Bill
     
  15. daytona600

    daytona600 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Used ancient SPU mono for about 20years & it was 30+ years old when i bought it ( circa early 50s ) rebuilt/re-tipped several times for a few hundred euros by Ortofon
     
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  16. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    Yeah, sorry; I didn't mean to be insinuating anything, rather trying to make a complete and direct statement. A rebuild is the full internal inspection and rework as needed. It may include work to the magnet structure, damping, contacts, etc. It should always include a new "rubber" suspension. Only the original maker can do that to original spec. It is expensive, but on an expensive cartridge, it is less than a full replacement. What you get however, is essentially renewed. That's both a savings and a guaranteed to spec performing cartridge.

    Suspensions including tie wires and elastomer parts can benefit from replacement. You are likely familiar with the foam rubber surrounds of speakers deteriorating over time. Even solid butyl rubber surrounds can harden over time. The degree of change to their properties varies by material and environment, vs time. Having that addressed in a cartridge assures like new performance. The other option that I suggested was taking advantage of trade-in programs of many MC makers. That gets you brand new product, a discount, and no waiting. A lot of people who send in cartridges for retipping services will buy another cartridge to use in the interim. That's added cost or if using a spare lesser cartridge, a loss of fidelity and enjoyment in respect with the original.
    -Bill
     
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  17. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I was going to say, it seems the be more common then not for companies to just take your old cartridge back for parts and either send you a refurb or a discount on a new one. This seems a more efficient way for the manufacturer to approach the situation.
     
  18. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    And for the consumer.:cheers: Having a very expensive cartridge does come with some maintenance hurdles though. It's the same with amplifiers, speakers, cars, you name it. There is cheap and then there is correct. Whining about a complex and or expensive product doesn't help one's financial state. That's why I don't drive a fancy car. They are not cheap to begin with and the maintenance eventually becomes proportionate to their cost. That is, if you actually use the product. Don't get me started about people who buy records and won't play them because they are sealed... :rolleyes:
    -Bill
     
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  19. Salectric

    Salectric Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    When I sent my Benz LP back to SoundSmith for its second “retip only” I asked whether there was any limit on the number of times it could be retipped, and SS said No. They can retip indefinitely into the future but they pointed out there is always a risk of some damage that could put an end to the recycling.

    It’s important to note that this “retip only” is just that. For better quality cartridges SS offers this service which involves removing the existing diamond tip and attaching a new tip to the old cantilever. This is apparently a more delicate job than replacing the entire cantilever/tip assembly so it costs more.

    I can’t overstate how pleased I have been with the two retips so far. Each time my Benz has come back sounding just like a new cartridge (at least as best I can recall from when it was new). I plan on sending it back every 3 years for as long as I can.
     
  20. Sedwards

    Sedwards Senior Member

    But they do say rebuild repeatedly in describing their service:

    Thank you for your interest in our cartridge rebuilding services.

    Peter Ledermann has been designing his own cartridges and rebuilding cartridges of all brands for more than 45 years.


    Rebuild Price*
    Otello $100
    Carmen
    $200
    Boheme
    $300
    Zephyr (original)
    $250
    Zephyr II / III
    $299
    Zephyr MIMC / MIMC Star
    $350
    Aida / Norma
    $350
    Voice / Sotto Voce
    $450
    Paua / Nautilus
    $550
    Sussurro / Mezzo
    $650
    Hyperion / Helios
    $850


    So I while I get that you don't consider what they do to be a "rebuild" you can't say that soundsmith doesn't consider what they do to be a "rebuild."
     
  21. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    On the other hand, it looks like Koetsu wants $1700 to rebuild a Rosewood or offers $700 off a new one with trade in. I just got mine retipped* for $500 with just a few days turnaround time, which seems a much better proposition.

    *Possibly rebuilt as well, depending on which set of semantics we're using :)
     
  22. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher Thread Starter

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    How long it usually take to "retip" (trying to get with a program semantically) when you send it to retipping service? Is it a week, a month, or more? I never done it, so simply do not know...
     
  23. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    That would just depend upon the back log of the place doing the retip. I have never had it done. I have a few old MC bodies that I have thought about maybe doing someday but I always just use a trade-in program instead. I don't have to replace a cartridge very often and I get a whole new one when I do that way.
    -Bill
     
  24. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    And that's the main issue I have with these retipping reviews.

    What would be interesting is directly pitting a SS-retipped cart versus a brand new one of the same model directly from the manufacturer. By the time the retipped cart comes back, the user has lost all reference for how things sounded before making the comparison with how things were before impossible and therefore such reviews are based on little to no context.

    A direct comparison with a table enabling quick changes like the VPI Prime would allow for an easy comparison, yet I've never read of anyone performing that experiment.

    My skepticism is rooted in how a manufacturer has done their homework in designing and implementing that design with specific materials in a specific way. How another company can seemingly randomly retip with any one of their own materials and supposedly make it sound as good or better for a fraction of the price seems rather odd to me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  25. Combination

    Combination Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans

    When the time comes, why not try it with your cartridge to see if it makes you smile? If the sound fails to please you (and based on my experience, I'd say unlikely), you wouldn't lose anything by selling it and just getting another brand new cartridge.
     
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