How Much Do We Need To Spend To Hear What CD/SACD or Vinyl Really Has To Offer

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Litejazz53, Jul 13, 2019.

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  1. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    I think this could be a fun thread to participate in, and I hope you do! Recently I sold all of my vinyl equipment in order to purchase some nice PS Audio Digital pieces, the Direct Stream DAC as well as their Direct Stream Memory Player. I am now trying something else, but I am still in that digital domain, and my goal is to acquire some top shelf pieces of digital equipment in order to extract the very best I can out of my 690 CD's and SACD's. I still have shelves of vinyl, but will get back in that game shortly. I am hoping to see some great combinations in this poll. Please enter the retail prices of your specific choices when you post.

    If we really want quality vinyl reproduction, the tools required for that are not inexpensive, so let's take a poll.
    How much money needs to be spent on these three products to achieve high quality reproduction in your view:
    Turntable
    Cartridge
    Phono Stage

    We will arrive at our final figure using Retail prices. We will not vote on the digital end, but please include the amount you believe would need to be spent on digital to achieve high quality reproduction in your view.

    My Vinyl estimate at Retail would include the following:

    VPI Prime Turntable $4,000.00
    Parasound JC 3+ phono stage $3,000.00
    Lyra Delos Phono Cartridge $2,000.00

    Total Analog: $9,000.00


    CD/SACD Player
    Marantz SA-K1 Ruby $4,000.00


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    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  2. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    You are forgetting the cost of vinyl important artist, original early pressings can go for several hundreds vs a few dollars for CD's. It depends on the person but a not so large vinyl collection could cost several times the equipment to play digital and vinyl together. Even not so especial vinyl is very expensive compared to the digital conterparts.
     
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  3. Dream On

    Dream On Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I think $2-4K gets you into really, really nice gear. Hear what it really has to offer? Not sure what that means - there is always better if one wants to spend the money. But I think $2-4K is the level where you can start to hear 'high end' sound, and that's probably as much as I would want to spend on any component barring a lottery win.
     
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  4. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    You are so right, but let's just look at the equipment cost for those three items, which are the basic starting points.
     
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  5. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    But, you forgot to LIST the items you are recommending, that's what we need, this will help everyone in all price ranges, pictures as well, if you can! :edthumbs:
     
    Daniel Thomas likes this.
  6. I can’t get enough of my phono set-up. It’s modest compared to some on this forum, but also pretty fancy compared to others. Regardless, it sounds stellar in my home.

    Turntable: Thorens TD-160 Mk1, Refurbished ($500—$400+$100 refurb)
    Cartridge: Denon DL-103 ($175)
    Phono Stage: Parks Audio Puffin ($400)

    Not bad for around $1,100

    I’m quite taken with this set-up. Could it be improved? Of course. Is it awesome? Hell, yes!

    Cheers,

    Bill
     
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  7. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    1500 to 2000 seems right to me.

    I paid new retail 1500 - for brand new KAB Technics M5G with all KAB bells and whistles - came with KAB ProS30. Used a 350.00 Cambridge Audio 640P - result under 2K - amazing sound - huge upgrade.

    Problem is - you cannot get this vinyl system any longer. But you should be able to find something just as nice for below 2K.
     
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  8. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    In that case is all relative as there is always something better, I made my choices trying not to get the cheapest nor spending a lot but I think you can get good, detailed, enjoyable sound from vinyl buying second hand equipment for less than my choices here (not the cartridge). If I were vaguely to set some minimal requirements for me with brand new stuff may be something like this would do me:

    TT: Music Hall 7.3 $1600
    Cart: Denon 103R $450
    PS: Lehman Black Cube $629

    Total: $2679

    Digital: Denon DCD 1600NE
    $1200
     
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  9. Octavian

    Octavian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisiana
    Here’s my set-up, though I bought used and got some good deals:

    Technics SL 1200 ($400)
    MP-110 ($100)
    Yaqin MS-23B ($150)
    Outlaw Audio RR2150 ($250)
    JBL S412 Studio Speakers (full range speakers with subs in each) ($220)

    And it sounds freaking fab to me. If you don’t mind looking for a bit and buying used, the $1000-1500 mark is totally reasonable.
     
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  10. fmfxray373

    fmfxray373 Capitol LPs in the 70s were pretty good.

    I would say under $600.
    Look for a used SL1200...at worst you may have to replace the tone arm assembly like I did. Check the pawn shops or Craig's List.
    There are a lot of really good used SACD players in the thrifts if you are patient. Look for Sony in particular, although if you are lucky you might stumble across an OPPO Blu-Ray Player.
    There is a very common Sony Blu-Ray player in the thrifts that does SACD...just look for the SACD symbol on the deck.
     
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  11. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    After over 15 or more years with a Studer/ReVox B-795 linear tracking turntable with several generations of Shure cartridges, ending with the Shure V-15 Type V-MR, I sold the ReVox and made a change. I don't think in all those years I was ever really satisfied with that turntable, I suppose I was never completely sure everything was in alignment, and it was impossible to adjust. So, after a period of time, I purchased a VPI slightly modified Scout with the 2" acrylic platter, loved that platter! VPI makes things so easy to set up, so I used my Shure V-15 Type V-MR MM cartridge with a new stylus, set it up to perfection. Even with Telarc and Reference Recording vinyl, I was never consistently happy with what came out of that turntable and cartridge. What I found was my set up then just could not compete with most of my digital sound, never mind the snap, crackle and pop, it just did not sound as good, and at that time I suppose I had about $5,800.00 worth of analog equipment, including the Parasound JC-3+. I don't know if the weak link was the VPI Scout Turntable or the older Shure V-15 Type V-MR cartridge, but it never had the sound of a well mastered CD played on a good Sony SACD player.

    After investing in new analog equipment, I still could not top my digital listening experiences, which is why I was curious about other people's experiences in regard to just how much of an investment does it take to achieve satisfying analog reproduction.

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member

    Well, my first turntable was a belt drive Technics with a p-mount Audio Technica cart that satisfied me fine. Probably cost $200 or less. So, it’s safe to say your mileage may vary. Maybe LPs just aren’t your thing. So even more money might be a waste. Perhaps a cart change would be the ticket? Or a phono stage change? Who knows? It’s fine for you to not like LPs, Internet forums be damned. :D
     
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  13. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    Consider comparing turntables to DACs rather than CD players. A separate DAC provides more flexibility and has become increasingly popular because many are using streaming services like YouTube and Spotify.

    Given that the turntable is set up properly, an entry level Rega or Project provides the basic qualities of analogue playback, but the higher end vinyl rigs show the full potentials. In my view, the latter begins at around 7k for the turntable, 1k for the cartridge, and 5k for the phono stage. A good tube phono stage is of capital importance
     
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  14. alarickc

    alarickc Vinylholic

    Location:
    Shaker Heights, OH
    I went with $4k-$6k. Generally, I wouldn't want to go too much bellow ~$2k on the TT, and $1k each on the phono amp and cartridge. This is what I went with for my system, and I am more than satisfied until I can afford a $10k plus system:

    Turntable: Technics SL1200GR $1700

    Cartridge: Soundsmith Aida MkII $2000

    Phono-pre: Musical Fidelity MX-VYNL $1000
     
  15. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    I've done a lot of experimenting the past few years. I go in and out of the hobby as well, and consider but a few pieces to be "keepers" whether it be because they are truly superlative in my eyes, or because I just got such a deal that the value they represent is beyond what I can get under normal circumstances.

    That said, this vinyl setup was extraordinary:
    George Merrill Polytable Super12 - $3000
    AT Art9 Cart - $950
    Herron Audio VTPH-2 - $3700

    Total is $7650 if I'm mathing correctly. I didn't purchase the Herron new so I saved a significant sum, but per the thread, that's what it costs retail.

    This setup was very introspective, very realistic, and extremely engaging. It was also pretty competent on some very different genres of music (think Tool, Eric Clapton, Rachmaninov, Slayer, and Justin Timberlake).

    To contrast, this digital frontend competed heavily against the above analog setup:

    Jay's CDT-2 mk II transport - $2000 new
    Schiit Yggdrasil "Analog 2" revision - $2300 new

    I didn't know Redbook could sound so great. It was captivating, never sounded "digital" as it were. And I had a pretty good digital setup when I ventured out into analog territory and the analog rig showed me how fluid, how powerful and unrestrained a quality frontend could be. I'm thankful I had all these experiences.

    Now I'm working to achieve a 90% solution. I've reached my own mountaintop. Now i'm pretty cool to hang out at base camp, enjoying music, but not investing staggering sums of money to do it.
     
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  16. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    I borrowed an Aesthetix Romulus CD player, it only plays redbook CDs, for about 6 months, and DEFINITELY it sounded better than any digital I have ever heard before. That player is $15000.

    When I returned that, I bought an Oppo BDP-95 and an Oppo BDP-105, to hear what SACD and DVD-Audio can sound like. Well, my experience is: NOT as good as the Aesthetix or my Audio Note players, simply with redbook CDs.
     
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  17. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    I think you are spot on on your price level of components to get where we want to go. I improved things over the ReVox, but I think I stopped short. If I do this thing again, I am starting with a VPI Prime Signature or bust!
    Very interesting reply. After all the changes and modifications, did you find that you were drawn to one format over the other?
     
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  18. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    Wow, beautiful piece of equipment!

    Aesthetix Romulus CD Player/DAC
     
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  19. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    I’m surprised no one is mentioning speakers. The rest is a waste if the speakers aren’t up to the task, but I suppose that’s a given around here. I have been moving up for years and a couple years ago finally got to my top end where I don’t see myself upgrading again. This is what it took:

    VPI Prime...$4000
    Manley Chinook tube preamp...$2500
    Soundsmith Zephyr STAR...$1600

    I also have an Krell amp and preamp, and Thiel 3.6 speakers. The smart thing I did was to get the speaker purchase right in the first place. I have had them now for about 30 years and have no plans to ever replace them. They are very neutral so they work well with anything since they don’t seem to color the sound. Obviously if you add the costs of those two necessary items that puts me at $14,000 but I’m very happy with it. But somebody upthread made an important observation: your vinyl collection is going to be expensive if you get the right pressings and have what you feel is a pretty complete collection. I have about 3,000 vinyl albums and that pretty much covers it all for me, but it’s the only format I listen to for serious listening. I have 2500 cds and for the most part I just don’t like the sound despite a high end cd player and D/A converter. I never ever listen to my cds in the main system, though they get lightly used in my two secondary systems as background music. Vinyl is just overall mastered much better to my ears.
     
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  20. Those Oppos aren't really tailored for DSD playback at the very high end of the market.
     
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  21. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital Thread Starter

    Jrr, the reason no one is mentioning speakers is because we are not addressing speakers at all. The question I am asking is, with your current speakers, and everyone's will be different, how much money do you think it will take to get very accurate, or as accurate as possible sound out of your analog system and your digital system. If we could all use a specific speaker point of reference, that would make things much easier, and if I had my rathers, I believe I would have the Wilson Alex as a speaker point of reference, but in my case I have to settle for the Aerial 10T or Polk LSiM 707. It does appear you are coming to about the same conclusion as I did, $8,000.00 Plus to achieve satisfactory results. At this point in the survey, 31.6% agree, it's takes over $8,000.00 to cut the mustard in vinyl equipment.
     
  22. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Nice to hear from a fellow Thiel and analog fan. I also thought I would "NEVER replace" my Thiel CS3.5 speakers, which I have owned for MORE than 30 years. They still sound so fantastic with the right amplifiers, as you feel about your 3.6. Now, I see on Ebay that CS3.7 speakers have gotten quite inexpensive, so I just bought a pair. They are better than 3.5, although I had to upgrade my amplifiers to appreciate them. So, I think that ANY pair of Thiel 3 series speakers, from the O3a to the CS3.7, have the qualities of being a bit analytical, very revealing of subtle details, as-good-as-it-gets dynamics, and state-of-the-art imaging. If you choose associated equipment carefully, and listen primarily to analog, you know that digital just doesn't sound as good, no matter how much money you spend on them. MAYBE cheap CD players sound better that cheap TT/TA/Carts. But when the sound gets REALLY good, say above $15000 for either the LP kit or the CD kit, the lesson here is that in a truly revealing system, and a high budget to "feed" it, Expensive analog playback is inherently better sounding than digital playback. Thiel speakers make this obvious.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
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  23. MikeJedi

    MikeJedi Forum Resident

    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I have a 1200.00
    Oppo 205 that is the best I have ever heard digital ever sound in my system. However my analog front end will (usually) sound better than the corresponding SACD /CD.
    Technics Sl1200 (I paid $430.00) with Denon DL110 (200$) , Parasound Zphono ($100.00)

    It just depends .. but my analog set up just has something that the digital doesn’t quite have. But the oppo is very analog like in many respects. I love owning both and don’t feel the need to upgrade either at this time. Very happy with both setups
     
  24. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    So, what player can play all three hi-res disc formats, Blu-ray Music, DVD-A and SACD, better than an Oppo? The Oppo 95, 105, and 205 will play native DSD if it is chosen in the menu.

    For me, I gave up on getting serious about all of them, in favor of staying with high-end redbook players, such as the Aesthetix and Audio Note.

    But, honestly, after decades of usually being utterly disgusted with the sound of digital at audio shows and at The Audio Home, I have to disagree with Oppo pundits. The BDP-95, 105 and 205 sound surprising clean, dynamic and delicate, particularly for the price. I believe the 93, 103, and 205 are significantly inferior, in a 2-channel audiophile system
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
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  25. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    I'm going to cheat and say - yes, both formats :)

    I think each has a unique draw to it. I'm 39 years old so my formative years were spent with CDs but I'm young enough that I was about 16 when things started transitioning over to MP3 and digital files. My experiences with vinyl, until I bought my own rig, were not good. Getting my own vinyl rig showed me that the sound from vinyl can be absolutely on par or even exceed that of digital (2015).

    2018 showed me that digital can be on par or even exceed that of analog.

    But that never really happens on the same release. It just depends on the album - how well it's mastered on each format, which format it was truly designed for, and so forth. So really, I think a balanced system representing each equally is obviously the most desirable but using my maths above, that would require the investment of a compact car and not many can do that.

    So then it becomes a matter, to me, of media cost. That's separate from the point of this thread but if I were forced to choose just one format (physical media required) for the rest of my life? I'd go with CDs and I say that with a heavy heart. Vinyl quality is tough to gauge sometimes just looking at media, the gear isn't cheap, it requires maintenance and skill to bring it to its best, and the current vinyl revival has just made all of those things more amplified. CDs are cheap, plentiful, if you get a dud - spend another $2 and try a different disc. And the initial investment to get the most out of them is cheap by comparison and you don't have to study a class to learn how to get them working at an optimal level. What I haven't found yet, for the money I'm willing to invest, is a file-based solution that competes with physical media. I actually think that requires just as much investment in a transport as a physical spinning disc transport.
     
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