How Much Do We Need To Spend To Hear What CD/SACD or Vinyl Really Has To Offer

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Litejazz53, Jul 13, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    the costs are very different between CD and vinyl- a lot different IMHO. probably a 1:3 or greater ratio for CD / SACD vs. vinyl as your thoughts point out. the choices in the pole do not make the distinction between vinyl or digital.
     
  2. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    -Thorens Td160 (got it for free 15 years ago, a recent total upgrade, incl. arm rewiring cost me 350€)
    -Ortofon mc3-turbo homc cartridge (380€ retail but 300€ if you shop around)
    -Arcam Rphono stage (500€)

    I'm at 1150€ or $1300 and have zero need to upgrade any of this :tiphat:.
    Now if you don't get a free quality TT like I did, I suppose you should add a retail price of at least another $1000 to this to get a good analogue setup?!

    So I voted for the $1000-$1500 setup (what I paid for my personal setup), but retail wise, when you have to buy everything new I would vote for the $2000-$4000 setup.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
    Bill Why Man likes this.
  3. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I think cost is relative to each individuals expectations. If one is happy with the SQ of their $1000 system is there really a need to spend $2-3k more? Maybe spending that much more that individual might find the SQ improvements sufficient enough to justify the cost. But on the flip side maybe the SQ improvements might be so minimal or subtle making the additional cost unjustified.
     
  4. Dream On

    Dream On Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    Didn't know you actually wanted recommendations. I don't really follow new products like I once did, as I'm becoming content with what I have and I already know what changes I'll make if I make them. The $2K to $4K amount is just based on experience.

    I think under $1K and you get entry level type equipment (not a criticism, it's just a fact and some of that gear is very nice); from $1K to $2K you start getting into nicer equipment but it's still built to a price point; at $2K to $4K now you start to get into a taste of the high end. Yes, it's basically entry level high end but this is where you start getting into nice Class A amps, really good tube amps, etc. And certainly, any digital disc players and vinyl setups, if you spend in this range the results can be stunning. For vinyl I'd always recommend buying the best TT and phono stage possible. The cart will have to be changed eventually, so better to go with a nice but inexpensive MM early on and then replace it with something more expensive in a couple of years.

    Again, sorry for the lack of recommendations, but I think recommendations are case specific anyways. They really depend on each listener, their preferences and their room, and of course their budget.
     
    mds and Deacon Blues like this.
  5. IGD Positive

    IGD Positive Forum Resident

    Location:
    Inner groove
    Agreed. When I had an $800 Music Hall MMF5.1 and an NAD PP2 preamp (a little under $200), I thought my vinyl setup sounded pretty damn good. Now I have a vinyl setup that is 9 times as expensive and it most definitely sounds a lot better. I could spend even more money and see further gains but I wouldn't tell someone that I think they need to spend $9000 to hear what vinyl "really has to offer" in any case.
     
  6. Dennis Metz

    Dennis Metz Born In A Motor City south of Detroit

    Location:
    Fonthill, Ontario
  7. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member

    Was it time to trudge this out? I thought maybe it was time . . .

    [​IMG]

    :D
     
    ti-triodes, Ecjjr, Adam9 and 2 others like this.
  8. MattHooper

    MattHooper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    Frankly I could do without ever seeing that cartoon again in my lifetime.

    It was worth a chuckle years ago when it came out, but has become the most stale, repeated "joke" in all high end audio. Please. No more.
     
  9. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member

    I achieved my goal of annoying someone with it. Thank you. :D
     
  10. MattHooper

    MattHooper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    Lucky you on those Thiel 3.7s. They are a ridiculously awesome speaker and will remain close to state-of-the-art for a long time to come IMO. Jim Thiel finally perfected his coincident design and the 3.7s sound smoother and more relaxed than previous Thiels, while providing if anything more detail. Plus, they are the most coherent large speakers I've ever heard. And they sound fantastic with vinyl. I owned the 3.7s for years and only had to sell them due to size/aesthetics in my room. I now use the slightly smaller Thiel 2.7s which sound very similar.

    As to cost of vinyl/digital.

    I think you can get the best of digital, for all practical purposes, very cheap these days.
    For vinyl - well vinyl just sounds different, and that in itself can be preferred even in a cheaper rig.

    I had a good micro seiki turntable and vinyl sounded glorious. I could hear how good digital sources through my Benchmark DAC could sound more accurate and more free of distortion. But the vinyl had it's own rich, organic charm that could make me prefer it often.
    Later I upgraded my turntable to a big ol' Transrotor Fat Bob S - a big heavily damped affair - and then the sound of vinyl became closer to digital in the sense of lowered noise floor and super clean "hear in blackness" sound. Yet it still retained the "vinyl sound" that was so rich and believable. It's not more accurate than my digital source, but higher level vinyl playback often gives a sonic impression of "sounding better" in terms of richness, organic believability, being freed from the confines of the speaker, texture, presence. So these days I often prefer my vinyl playback for sound as much as for the physical/aesthetic aspect of the LPs.
     
    mikeburns, Ham Sandwich and alarickc like this.
  11. MattHooper

    MattHooper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    Yes. Success of a sort, I guess.

    It's disheartening how often that cartoon shows up in vinyl discussions, or people just repeat the caption as if it were their own insight.
     
    Pinknik likes this.
  12. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    $2000.00 for a turntable and cartridge setup. Anything less and you can beat the sound quality for new pressings and most old with a decent 1 grand digital front end. Digital has gotten a lot better in the last 10 years. Of course you’ll need to spend an additional $500 to $600 on a phono preamp to complete the package.

    So $1000.00 dollars for a nice CD/SACD player like the new Pioneer Elite buys you 90% plus of the sound that you’d get from a $5000.00 digital setup.
     
    Helom likes this.
  13. tubesandvinyl

    tubesandvinyl Forum Resident

    To get decent sound, a couple Grand if you know what to buy used.

    To get nearly life like, fool you into imagining the players in your room, way more than 8 large.
     
    AKA-Chuck G likes this.
  14. Anton D

    Anton D Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chico CA
    OK, so....answering as though we are shopping for new/retail gear, and potential "end game" quality that will prevent any further audiophile nervosa...

    Musical Fidelity M6 phone preamp retails at 1,800. (Or, toss in 3,800 for the Nuvisat phono preamp.) They do both MM and MC.

    Ortofon Century turntable, with an MM Concorde included at 3,400 bucks. (I find that cartridge does well with mono playback, as well.)

    LP Gear Zupreme headshell, 80 bucks. 20 more bucks for the matching headshell leads.

    Manna MC cartridge, 1200 bucks.

    So, 6 large for end stage vinyl.
     
    Litejazz53 likes this.
  15. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Absolute best vinyl has to offer. That's at least $50K from what I've heard. More than enough of what vinyl has to offer? For me, that was about $6300 (retail pricing) of what I believe are some of the value leaders in analog.

    As for digital, I get stellar sound from my Yamaha A-1060 universal player ($499) running into a Pro-ject Pre Box S2 Digital ($399). Again, I've found these components to be an excellent value. I know there is better (in terms of subjective performance) but not at prices I'm willing to spend, considering 7/10ths of my digital listening is via streaming. I really suspect I'd have to spend 5X as much for maybe a 10% improvement.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  16. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    I like your descriptions "organic believability", and "being freed from the confines of the speaker". I have never heard these phrases before, and they convey some of what I prefer about vinyl extremely well.
     
    Ecjjr, Ham Sandwich and Bill Why Man like this.
  17. Luxmancl38

    Luxmancl38 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Manchester NH
    Sold my Dynavector P-75 MK III Phono, CJ Et-3 SE preamp and Linn Sondek TT. Bought the Luxman PDA-171 TT w/Dynavector xx-2 cart and a Luxman CL 38U-SE all tube preamp. It has a phono w/4 stepup transformers. These preamps were specially built for their 90th anniversary. Only 100 made for worldwide sale. A big step up from my former rig.
     
    bluemooze likes this.
  18. Deacon Blues

    Deacon Blues Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Carolina
    This. I'm pretty happy with my 2M ortofon rig, for analog but IGD or any distortion for that matter, whether pleasing to me or not will be there. Digital rigs that present information exactly as it should, with little to no jitter, can be had with a cheap HTPC and a decent DAC. Don't get me started on cables.
     
  19. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    My analog setup is at about $3.5k retail, and if vinyl has much more to offer, then I’m in for one hell of a treat when I inevitably upgrade my cartridge. This could very well be one of those “don’t know what you’re missing until you hear it” things, but I am very happy with what I am getting in the $2-4k bracket. I intend for my system to reach the $4-6k range, but strictly answering for what is necessary for high quality sound, I believe I’m there at $3.5k:

    Technics SL-1210GR ($1700)
    Audio-Technica AT-VM95ML ($170)
    Graham Slee Accession ($1450)
    Plus tweaks that I consider important to what I am hearing: KAB tonearm damper ($170), LP Gear Zupreme 10g headshell with SOAR HD-5 leads ($90 together)

    Conventional wisdom seems to be that I should spend a lot more on a cartridge, and I do have that itch, but the AT-VM95ML is serving as an exquisite placeholder until I’m ready to do that (which may be some time from now, given how good things sound already).

    CD/SACD? I have no idea. The OP says not to include the digital gear in the voting, so I’m not entirely sure why it’s included in the discussion, but I feel confident in saying that to get what CD/SACD has to offer, I’d need to spend more than I have ($115 for a Blu-ray player about a decade ago, and the Wolfson DAC built into my integrated amp, which I can’t quantify as its own expense), because CDs don’t sound anywhere near as good as vinyl on my system. I don’t have any SACDs, and I’ve occasionally been tempted to buy a couple just to check out the format (my Sony Blu-ray player plays SACD).
     
    Ecjjr likes this.
  20. JamieLang

    JamieLang Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    They're not the same amount or close. You need to spend least for SACD....then more for CD....then the most for vinyl.
     
  21. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    I struggle with this question because the "cost" has to count the time / learning curve on the vinyl side. Which to me costs "more" (and not in monetary / financial terms) than what you spend on the vinyl set up!

    For example, take someone who has NEVER owned or played a CD or vinyl system. You presented that person with the CD setup first to try, and then presented them second with the vinyl setup.

    Within a few hours, that person would have the CD system set up and probably working to 99% of its capability.

    The vinyl system? Who knows, especially if that person made the mistake of ending up on the Hoffman forum as their first step in approaching the setup/ learning curve! :hide::angel: Seriously though - to play it right and well and suck all the detail / quality you can out of it --- Days? Weeks? Years?

    Let's face it - one of the appeals of a CD setup is it is pretty easy to master the setup, operation :) and probably why so many gravitate toward it. (not probably, it IS why).

    Anyone thinking "but vinyl is not complex" you need to step back and think about the average person who wants instant gratification, buy something, push a button, flip a switch, and voila.............. time to cap a beer........... and then think about how your current vinyl knowledge was a slow accumulation of learning, trial, error, correction, discovery............ I am still learning after 43 years of owning my first TT.

    To me, many years of experience in vinyl is priceless, and the missing link in these discussions.
     
    gakerty, Kyhl, bluemooze and 3 others like this.
  22. texquad

    texquad Senior Member

    Location:
    Home of The Alamo
    I have a rather modest mostly used sound system. In most cases I prefer the sound of vinyl reproduction but it's hard to beat good sounding SACD, BR & DVD-A's especially given the option of the surround experience.
    Back in the 90's when CD'S were all the rage I could buy quality used vinyl for pennies on the dollar. Now it's just the opposite where vinyl is hot and CD'S are at giveaway prices. So I say strike while the iron's hot!
     
    bever70 likes this.
  23. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    I agree with that - someone with lots of experience can get some great sound out of a low cost system - you do not need to spend 8K to have great vinyl playback.
     
    Helom likes this.
  24. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    I will agree compared to CD vinyl is complex and if you want instant gratification nothing will beat a CD player and to a lesser extent streaming.

    I think vinyl is more intimidating then it is complex. People hear about protractors and alignments and VTF and VTA and SRA and go on boards like this where obsessive is the word of the day and get scared away. I’ve set up half a dozen tables for friends over the last two or three years and every time I do it they are amazed at how little is actually involved. I even use the HiFi News Test Record. More complex than a CD setup yes but still pretty simple. Definitely more intimidating to the uninitiated though.
     
  25. HiFi Guy

    HiFi Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lakeland, FL
    I voted $2-4000 because I really like my current rig. Not the most expensive I've ever owned, but the best sounding I've had, and quite easily.

    MoFi Ultradeck $1999

    MoFi Ultra Heavyweight $199

    Grado Statement Platinum $350
    (likely will upgrade to a Statement Sonata or
    Master next year)

    Sutherland Insight $1399
    (I've seriously considered jumping to the Duo)

    This setup sounds stellar for < $4k though.
     
    Litejazz53, alarickc and Deacon Blues like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine