How Much do you Trust Online Reviewers?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by avanti1960, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I think there is another issue that doesn't necessarily get addressed when we compare what we (the Reviewers) hear versus what the general public hears:

    1) the system - people always seem ready to believe that CD players, cartridges, turntables, cables and amplifiers (and of course the ROOM itself) sound different/better but then turn off all these things while at an audio show usually listening to unfamiliar music.

    2) the differing expectations and values of the specific reviewer - when I see Stereophile gave product X a great review or dagogo or Hi-Fi Choice or whatever - none of those things impress me since I don't agree with the sonic TASTE of several of the reviewers at Dagogo let alone from other magazines.

    It's one of the reasons Constantine has stayed away from handing out awards (I think we're the only publication that does not) because giving an award to say Magnepan would have me roll my eyes and no doubt if what I liked got an award it would make another reviewer scratch their head. Manufacturers like the awards and dealers due to the advertising - so on the one hand they help the industry. But I prefer awards to lasting products - when the Audio Note OTO can sell for 25 years year in and year out that matters more than handing out an award to Musical Fidelity amp that doesn't last 5 years on the market before being replaced. If it was a great sounding amplifier in 1994 it SHOULD be a great sounding amplifier in 2019. Sugden, OTO and very little else!

    But even my review of the KingKo KA 101 $850 integrated/headphone/power amp - well - I am running speaker cables and IC cables that EACH cost more than the amplifier. I am running very expensive speakers and preamp. each of which are well over 10 times the price of the KingKo. So the results that I get will be very different than the fellow running $12 cables and $800 speakers. Albeit I do run it into my less expensive speakers as well. But again most people have not heard the Audio Note AX Two so my commentary is less helpful with a readership that has no frame of reference. It's one and perhaps the only reason I own the KEF LS-50 because most audiophiles have at least heard the speaker so there is a point of reference.

    And at Audio Shows - man I had a guy on forums following me for 2 years telling me how much he hated Audio Note - they sounded boomy, coloured, weak and it went like that and I just said well it is what it is. I mean I heard them at CAS 2012 or something and they were pretty poor sounding - didn't make my top 20 rooms. And there were only about 45 or so so not good. Then he heard them at Warren jarret's room and hailed it as the best sound of the show and one of the best he had ever heard - same for me with MBL - first heard them and they were just atrocious - next show I picked em number one.

    But even there - the MBLs were played quite loud - and apparently loud is where MBL performs well and quiet they apparently do not. So my short time in a room with loud presentation gives me one impression - had I played something soft I may not have chosen them best sound at the show - there is a time limit.

    Even at CAS 2017 one room was getting mixed impressions - ho-hum. So I put on some Guns and Roses knockin on Heaven's Door (an average recording) and cranked it up - another reviewer who was ho hum previously was roundly impressed and wound up putting the room in his top three. From nothing to top three based on music played, a recording, and volume level.

    I love classical music but I often feel like an audio show isn't the best place for it. There is too much surrounding noise - I need a relaxed quiet environment to sob like a baby to some wonderful music not have people walking around yacking - Adele bellowing from the next room a dealer sitting too close beside me telling me about the designer's primary school days or the tube being cryogenic treated or whatever other crap where I can't hear the Strad.

    Rock on the other hand - well you can yack but I won't hear you over the 100dB electric guitars.

    Lastly - Small speakers do not move air - The Buchardt speaker I have not heard but they appear to be in the same general price class as the KEF LS-50, Harbeth P3ESR, LS-3/5a from Falcon or Audio Space or the new 15 ohm Rogers (which are as close to the originals than anything else - I auditioned them yesterday) and these are the best of all of them.

    The problem is I don't consider any of these to be hi-fi speakers. They are good in their range and perhaps for the money. Magazines do a bit of a disservice by touting these speakers. I say good for the money because you could spend $6000 for the B&W 805 - lol. So in comparison to that absurdity the KEFs and Harbeths and Rogers seem like relative bargoons. You could buy all three of the other pairs for less money! But none of these can capture the even or anywhere near the scale of the event. I don't just mean bass - the midrange and treble just aren't that good and they don't generate a truly expansive sound. Go bigger or don't bother. You'll just wind up getting rid of them IMO. No matter how wonderful the review is.

    A long time high end dealer in Hong Kong argues that a speaker to couple to the room better should employ an 8 inch woofer - bigger in a bigger room. And generally I found that to be the case -- for a main speaker.

    Just my general observations over 25 years I have tended not to like speakers using:

    Metal dome tweeters
    side firing woofers
    Polypropylene or Kevlar woofers or midwoofers
    Ribbons
    Low Efficiency
    Tweeters on top
    Narrow baffle designs with multiple midrange drivers covering the same frequencies

    Indeed, yesterday I was perusing through a Cantonese high end magazine and discussing with the dealer (after listening to the Rogers LS-3/5a) my amazement that so SO SO SO many brands are bringing back 40-50-60-70 year old loudspeakers - Wharfedale with the Linton, Tannoy Prestige, Klipsch - heritage, Rogers - Rogers! And so on and that even ATC, Quad, Audio Note, Harbeth, Magnepan and (even PS Audio is bringing back a variation of the Infinity line) have essentially the same overall designs for 30-40-50 years.

    Which illustrates just how pathetic the new designers are when all of them kind of suck verses these 40 year old designs - the fact that posters here are seeking out VOTT and Western Electric - says much.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
    HiFi Guy, russk, LeeS and 3 others like this.
  2. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    -0-
     
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  3. Fruff76

    Fruff76 L100 Classic - Fan Club President

    I’m on my way to Axpona. I’ve gotta hear how bad they are.
     
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  4. lonelysea

    lonelysea Ban Leaf Blowers

    Location:
    The Cascades
    Jeesh, I never realized this place was crawling with reviewers!
     
  5. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Everyone's a critic :shh:
     
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  6. Leggs91203

    Leggs91203 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indiana
    The only time reviews mean anything is if people mostly agree.
    Well like everyone seems to think Crosley turntables are junk, so it is probably true.

    Sometimes things get mixed reviews .
    Bose speakers get a lot of bad reviews but the few pairs I have heard, in my own house, seem alright. Nothing phenomenal but better than what a lot of people say.
    Bose 201 and also 301, both series III. The 201's are so-so, the 301 sound good.

    But on the other hand, sometimes things get good reviews but leaves some of us scratching our heads. Like those U-turn turntables. Oh I am sure they sound just great but they are a total eyesore AND two of them do not even come with a cue lever. And for $289 which doesn't even include something silly like a cue lever?

    Anyways, I do not watch a lot of youtube reviews.
     
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  7. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    My opinion has always been that as a whole reviewers do more harm than good.
     
  8. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Turns out I do not trust any review, amateur, user, online, magazine and so on. When I do I am always greatly disappointed.
     
  9. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Interesting your impression of the S400's.

    I maybe at least expected a "not bad, considering the price". I say this, never having listening to them myself, but they seem to have been received mostly positively on the forum here.

    Maybe if could hear a bit more in depth, your appraisal of the S400's performance, we might be better equipped to understand you opinion of them?

    Not that any time in my right state of mind, would I spend $7,700 on a set of "mini-monitors". But from their price tags, I am given to assume that they are decent sounding bookshelf type speakers.

    It would seem that Zero Fidelity is going out on that same limb as others have in the past, when making statements about products that are so far apart in their pricing that a comparison does not come close to making sense.

    Just an action like this, would leave any other reviews by Zero Fidelity suspent to the extent that I would probably discard them completely.

    And it is not that price means everything, it means a lot for sure, but not everything, when it comes to audio.

    I have heard $50k systems that I wouldn't listen to in my garage, let alone in my living room.

    But, apparently those that make them have a special fondness for their particular sound signature that I don't share.

    Still very curious about your particular impression's of the S400's.

    Not that they are a bad speaker either, but I have never been all that fond of how LS50's sound either.
     
    Tim 2 likes this.
  10. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    They were good speakers for the money but the hype surrounding them in some circles is not justified. I will review them in more detail in the S400 "speakers with buzz" thread.
     
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  11. Dream On

    Dream On Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I watch Zero Fidelity reviews. Not sure why really. Just for entertainment I suppose.

    I get that his concept is a one-take, winging it type of approach. But it sometimes makes me think, if you take the review as seriously as the video that you shoot, should I trust what you have to say?

    For instance, he did a recent review of a cheap diffuser off of Amazon. He basically threw it up on his wall and determined that it helped the sound. And that's the extent of his review. No info about competing products, no acknowledgement that the diffuser was random in nature while most others are purpose built to deal with certain frequencies and break them up in a specific way, and no comparisons with these other types of diffusers. He would do a better service to his viewers if he took more time to carefully compare the product in this way.

    In one review he said he would talk about why he likes certain woofer materials later in the review and it never happened. Other times he says things like, "I should have tried this but I'm too lazy to bother. I'll just go with my impressions based on what I did try. And that's just gonna be my take on these speakers *snaps fingers*."

    I mean, lol.

    I think my favorite online reviewer is Thomas and Stereo. He can ramble on about sound for 15 minutes but he comes across as more honest and thoughtful. It almost feels like I'm sitting down and talking about audio with a friend - this is the vibe I get from his videos.
     
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  12. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Good to know... I think that I missed that one in your first reference review.

    But then, I do have a "thing" about reviewer's using expensive esoteric audio audio cables that influence sound in specific ways that ordinary wire does not.

    The whole concept of doing so, effectively render's the review worthless.

    Tell me what the piece of gear sounds like with ordinary wire of the proper gauge and construction.

    I'm primarily interested in what the piece of audio equipment sound like, not so much of a cable influenced review.

    Moving air IS important if you have a desire to produce sound.

    Everything has its place.

    I don't either, but my bedroom or kitchen is not my audio room. While I don't want to completely sacrifice sound in those rooms, I do realize that I am not going for the same thin as in my audio room. So compromises are necessary and importantly understood as such.

    I think that a real "woofer" starts at 12" and find that 15" is an ideal size. An 8" speaker can hardly be considered to be a "woofer".

    Here, I kid. It is really dependent on the size of the room, what does constitute a "woofer".

    One aspect of audio that probably impresses me more than any other is how improved bookshelf speaker sound today than in years past. They somehow manage to get truly impressive amounts of bass out of 6" driver's.

    , Well, if you need a narrow design and want to move more air, then multiple smaller driver's are called for. Multiple driver's don't really bother me, in principle.

    I think that a lot of this is pure nostalgia. A lot of those 40-50-60-70 year old loudspeakers, were not really that remarkable, even back in their day. Most of these are going to be made in China and are not going to be the same cabinet construction, driver's or anything else.

    Even Altec, reintroduce their legindary A7 VOTT back in the earlier 2000's, as the "Legacy A7". This is it.

    "Altec Lansing says the new Legacy A7 is a meticulous re-issue of this classic speaker, precise in every engineering detail and offered in the most refined cabinetry the speaker has ever seen.

    “The new A7 is a meticulous re-issue of our original product,” says Mark Lucas, president and CEO of Altec Lansing Technologies.

    “Every detail, every specification is based on historic research and painstaking design analysis."

    Sounds impressive, until you look at the cabinet. "finished with the signature “Voice of the Theatre” black splatter finish".

    When I think of an A7, I think of a smooth theater gray paint finish.

    [​IMG]

    They go on to say,
    • Altec’s Golden Sample was acoustically matched to an original A7. All of our efforts were focused on achieving the same signature sound for which The Voice of the Theatre is famous.
    They crossover their "Legacy A7" at 900-cycles, rather than the standard 500-Hz. that the A7-500's, that feature the same 511B horn have always used.

    And this is Altec!

    The price was $4,000 per-cabinet, when these were first announced. Later when they started formally selling them, they were going for $5,700 per cabinet plus $300 shipping per cabinet, to a total of $6,000 each.

    For $6k each, I think that I would want the real thing.

    Back when the original Western Electric's and Altec Voice Of The Theater speaker's were manufactured, amplifier's only had a few watts of power and movie theaters were very large.

    Horns and cabinet's were designed by audio engineer's who understood physical principales which remain the same today as they were back then.

    What worked then, still works today.
     
    Tim 2 likes this.
  13. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    agree. he did NOT go all gaga for the Buchardts and justifiably so.
     
  14. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Very fair. The point of the post was to criticize the critic, not the speaker. The JA Pulsars are spectacular sounding speakers and although expensive, it is impossible to find a more clear transparent speaker for less.
    The S400s are a good speaker for the money but they have lots of competition and would not be in my top three at their price.
     
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  15. Leggs91203

    Leggs91203 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indiana
    Is that to say the reviews are typically good but then in real life the situation is not so good?
     
  16. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I think I got that part. Was just curious about your opinion of the speaker also.

    Will follow you there.
     
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  17. Xarkkon

    Xarkkon Would you like a Custom Title?

    Location:
    Asia
    What are your top 3 at their price point? I actually happen to have a S400 on delivery to audition at home and am intending to audition B&W, Revel bookshelves and Gato. Interested to hear your views!
     
  18. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    I afraid there are too many reviewers that want to be paid $$$$ for a good review.
     
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  19. Vinny123

    Vinny123 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    I’ll surely research and read reviews. But I trust reviews and advice from this forum way more.
     
  20. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    The audio gear (or any gear) review business is a tricky one, and today's world of information overload it is transparent and many see right through it and the many holes in the model (there are many of course!).

    These days reviewers that get paid to review a product, or get free gear to review a product or whose publications are sponsored / supported by the very companies whose gear they are reviewing --- at the end of the day nobody trusts those reviews because by nature they are inherently biased.

    So we all cry "so we need independent reviews!" OK, but who is going to do that without funding? The problem with that is also suddenly "crack pot" review sites pop up, like the Audio Science Review (ASR) site, where a guy has the $$ to buy a bunch of expensive test equipment, but then turns into a loose cannon by not understanding the responsibility he / the site has to supporting and fostering a healthy audio industry. The goal is to use independent reviews to GROW the industry, not to tear it down and discredit the companies they don't like. Turns into a whole different class of "bias" --- one that is probably worse than the old model....... and much more dangerous.

    Again, the review business can be a tricky one -- thankless, not lucrative --- but one that requires a high degree of integrity and trust. Who has a solution?
     
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  21. ZenArcher

    ZenArcher Senior Member

    Location:
    Durham, NC
    The job of an audio reviewer isn't to "foster a healthy audio industry" or to "GROW the industry" - that's the industry's job. With those goals, reviewers become just an arm of the industry, whose interests may not align with the buyer's interests.

    The job of an audio reviewer is to help consumers spend their money wisely and buy equipment they're happy with - reliable, good-sounding and with the features they want.
     
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  22. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    The point I was making in the context of those statements, which you missed, is that when the reviewers actively discredit and try to defame a company - then it is harmful. Just present the facts, let the data make the case -- don't take an active role in attacking the company.

    I agree with your premise, just making the point the reviewers should just present the facts and not seek to discredit or defame a company. I brought it up because the site I mentioned did just that, right here on the Hoffman board.

    Moreover, I think a healthy review system WILL foster a healthy audio industry if done right - it should be a positive feedback loop, so I don't completely agree with the point you are making.
     
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  23. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    High quality post Richard...well except for the tweeter on top comment where you are just dead wrong. ;)

    Seriously though, some wisdom here. :cheers:
     
  24. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    The solution is honesty- just call 'em like you hear 'em. And no deception by omission either. If something is glaring, name it.
    Obviously you don't have to slam the thing, we get the picture. A little subtlety would go a long way. Who knows- this may even become popular. Also get out of bed the manufacturers.
    Are the writers at Stereophile going to be honest and say that the new PS Audio speakers suck (or rather have some "work to do") if they are on the dang Treadmill with PM him in the mornings?
     
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  25. Sterling1

    Sterling1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    Reviewers give impressions and, having a warehouse of stored impressions, reviewers can compare and contrast impressions which might be something valued by consumers. Yet, even if it's a sincere impression, it's not so much matter of trust as it is a matter of taste. So what do you want, what sounds good to reviewers or what sounds good to you?
     
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