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How much jazz was there in these classic rock artists?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Andrew J, Apr 30, 2021.

  1. bzfgt

    bzfgt The Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler

    New Jersey

    @Fischman So (leaving out some repetitions),

    Bessie's Blues (Coltrane): I7, IV7, I7, V7, IV7, I7

    Stormy Monday (Allmans version): I7, IV7, I7, bII7, I7, IV7, I7, ii, iii, biii, V7, bIV7, V7, I7, IV7, I7

    So, are you saying something is jazz because jazz musicians are playing it? Or that people are jazz musicians because what they're playing is jazz? If the former, we can easily determine that Bessie's Blues is jazz whereas Stormy Monday is not, because Coltrane is playing the former and the Allman Brothers are playing the latter. But if it is the latter, things are more complicated--SM has a jazzier progression than Bessie's Blues.
    jay.dee likes this.
  2. Fischman

    Fischman RockMonster, ClassicalMaster, and JazzMeister

    New Mexico
    Again, its not JUST the chord progression..... its also the notes being played over the chords (see my mention of All Blues, which has an even simpler chord progression, but the overall harmonic approach is very much non blues, as are the lines chosen in the solos)... and the rhythms....

    And in case it's not entirely clear, who is playing is irrelevant.
  3. drad dog

    drad dog Forum Resident

    New England
    It seems to me that without a definiton of "jazz notes" this argument can't succeed.

    Do you mean that it's of no matter what the genre of the record is or the identity of the player? This is basically to say "you know jazz when you hear it." That helps you but I'm not sure anyone else is so enlightened.

    Also: The thread is about "who" some people are in their influences, so it is somewhat relevant.
  4. Fischman

    Fischman RockMonster, ClassicalMaster, and JazzMeister

    New Mexico
    I've discussed the notes being played already. More so in how the more one sticks to the blues scale, the more blues it is.

    Who is playing is irrelevant to whether or not the music is jazz. If someone is a rock artist, even a pure rock artist, I'm not going to say they can't play jazz, or just say it's not jazz simply because of who's playing it. I'm going to listen first.

    RLPATTON Forum Resident

    Hendrix had Wes Montgomery influences on guitar with those octaves that you hear on Third Stone From (on this same song, Mitch Mitchell is doing his best Elvin Jones impersonation) The Sun and Vanilla Junction

    Jon-A likes this.

    RLPATTON Forum Resident

  7. Marty T

    Marty T Stereo Fan

    Yeah, "Lazy" popped into my head immediately upon seeing "none" next to Deep Purple.
    Terrapin Station likes this.
  8. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Cincinnati, OH
    People tend to talk about drummers like Baker, Ward, Mitchell and so on...

    And these guys swing, absolutely. My word you could even just take Ward's hi-hat driving the band in "Wicked World" and switch it out with a hundred Big Bands. Or the 12/8 waltz that is the opening of "War Pigs." This stuff is a jazz-influenced drummer playing in a rock band. No question.

    But few rock guitar players knew how to use jazz within the rock context. As my background was jazz, that was one of the first things as a guitar player (besides riffs and a way of stacking ideas like I had never heard) that caught my ear about Iommi. You could practically drop the solo from "Planet Caravan" onto a Joe Pass album and nobody would be the wiser.

    From 2:30 on, there is literally not a single note that Iommi is playing which isn't jazz.

  9. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Cincinnati, OH
    Also Robert Fripp. Some of his early work could have been dropped onto a Kenny Burrell record!
    RLPATTON likes this.
  10. BDC

    BDC Forum Resident

    Blues as it's known today comes out of Jazz, so every blue player is in part jazz. Another thing is the tendency to think of Jazz as Coltrane/Miles/Parker etc... There is also the more structured jazz that came before, in England called trad jazz, maybe elsewhere too, I'm not sure, just saying and open to correction or elaboration..

    RLPATTON Forum Resident

    that's the jazziest guitar work in a rock setting that I can think of outside of Jazz Fusion type guitarist
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  12. ostrichfarm

    ostrichfarm Forum Resident

    New York
    Just leaving this here in case anyone hasn't heard it, or isn't familiar with the work of the great Ollie Halsall:

    jay.dee and bzfgt like this.

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