How To Fix A Center Image That Is Off-Center?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by George P, Mar 29, 2023.

  1. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Any suggestions on how to fix a center image that is off to the left about a 1/4 of the width of my soundstage? My speakers are in phase and are exactly the same distance to the listening position and the wall behind them. Also toed in the same distance.
     
  2. mkane

    mkane Strictly Analog

    Location:
    Auburn CA
    Mess with toe on one side. I suppose you have no balance control. Has it always been this way? Could be an amp/pre-amp issue.
     
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  3. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Generally the first thing one would do is swap the left and right cables someplace in the chain, preferably starting at the source, and hear if it changes to the other side. If so, track down which component is causing it. If it never changes, then it is probably the speakers and/or room relationship.

    As a test, you could also use a Y cable and feed one output of the source to both channels of the next piece of gear to mimic a mono source with exactly the same level on both channels.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
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  4. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    It may have always been this way, but I haven't noticed.

    I have a balance control, so I could try that, but I'd prefer to address any setup issues first, if possible.

    Regarding toe in, would you toe the left in more or the right in more?

    Is it possible that this is due to a loose RCA connection? I think my SACD players connectors are not very tight.
     
    GyroT likes this.
  5. Either room acoustics and/or something is probably out-of-spec in your equipment chain. Do you have, say, furniture close or in front of the sound field of your speakers?
     
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  6. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    No furniture in front, but some behind and slightly off to the side of each speaker.

    Also, I have an big opening on the wall to the right of the right speaker and a wall that is 7 feet to the left of the left speaker, but it is covered with a thick, soft curtain.
     
  7. Tough call. If I’m understanding you correctly, if the image is moved that much it’s probably more than room acoustics. Does it occur with each of your sources? And if you play a true mono recording, is the sound noticeably louder in one speaker vs. the other (perhaps check with an SPL meter)?
     
    timind likes this.
  8. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    The most diagnostic test with the least getting-behind-your-rack would be to switch the speakers side-to-side and see if the imaging shifts sides, following a speaker with reduced response.

    Then before we go too much deeper, see if something has affected your ears themselves, wax or loss of hearing. Pull the speakers out and face them directly inwards - making yourself a very large pair of headphones. Place a chair between them, listen facing front, and then seated away from the speakers. Eyes closed looking away from the stereo, is the image still pulled in the wrong direction in the room, or does it follow your head. If this direct path makes the difference disappear, then you can look at furniture and room shape that affects the far-field imaging.

    Really getting technical, one could burn a CD with a 100Hz test tone, and then measure the AC voltage at either speaker terminal with a multimeter to ensure that they are being provided the same electrical signal. (Compare to a 5kHz test tone and its balance which affects image more, but requires higher multimeter frequency response) From there one can adjust the balance control, or swap cable channels, closing in on the component that is causing a mismatch.
     
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  9. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Will You Be My Neighbor?

    Location:
    USA
    My left ear has some HF loss from a childhood illness. Counter intuitively, the result was that imaging was to the left. The Doc explained that it was my brain (or what’s left of it) compensating, or should I say over compensating. Hopefully it’s not that in your case, but you might want to have it checked out if have not had a hearing test recently.
     
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  10. GyroT

    GyroT Forum Resident

    Location:
    Italy
    Very possible. I struggled with the same issue for months, and guilty of assuming the worst, I overcomplicated things, and nearly drove myself mad in the process. Loose connection was to blame. First thing I checked but obviously not well enough.
    Recently had the same thing with a woofer not working on one speaker. Another connection loose because of moving them around looking for the optimal position. Terrifying to think it took me at least 3 sides of various lps to understand something was badly off.
     
  11. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Good to know. I had assumed that RCA connectors were all or nothing. I'll see if I can get them tighter on my SACD player (my only source.)
     
  12. dasacco

    dasacco Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachussetts
    If it turns out your connectors are all good, you can try this trick out for setting toe-in. It worked great for me, originally posted by forum user @porotikos

    "i just got my new diy amazing speakers. they played awesome but they werent correctly set. i followed this advice from a post i found in stereophile.com:

    To adjust toe in I use The Beatles-"Abbey Road" and the song "Her Majesty." The vocal and guitar start

    off in one channel and slowly pan all the way to the other channel. If the vocal move towards the

    listener as it gets close to the middle there is too much toe in, if the vocal moves away from the

    listener there is too little toe in. It should sound as if McCartney's vocals roll smoothly and

    continuously across the sound stage. If it sounds like he jumps from Right to Center to Left the speakers

    are too far apart.

    after i did that, followed our hosts advice.
    in total, i can only say WOOOOOOOOOW
    My speakers were not in a strict triangle with same sides, so i needed to play a little. But now i am just shocked in what i hear. i put revelations from iron maiden and its like i never heard it before. Thank you Mr Steve Hoffman, thank you guys. i am in heaven"
     
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  13. jfeldt

    jfeldt Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF, CA, USA
    The first thing I thought of was a tracking issue from your volume control. Is it always shifted the same amount at all volumes? What if you turn off your pre-amp and give the volume control a few good turns all the way to the left and right to clean things out in there? Try swapping left and right cables before the pre-amp, and left and right cables after the pre-amp or your speaker cables at the amp to help narrow down if it is one of your pieces of electronics or not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
  14. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Will You Be My Neighbor?

    Location:
    USA
    To expand on this excellent advice, on my CJ PV-7 preamp, the balance control had a set screw that came slightly loose, which allowed the knob to slip slightly without me noticing, so I was always at 1 o'clock. You might check that to see if the center of the rotation is lining up with the center notch on the Yamaha.
     
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  15. Mike from NYC

    Mike from NYC Senior Member

    Location:
    Surprise, AZ
    You must use a MONO recording to really hear what is going on - stereo recordings will not do!!!!!!!!!!

    More often than not it is room gain that causes your issue if all other things are good.

    I have that issue with my room although the speakers are toed in exactly the same (I use a laser to make sure) and I make sure the speakers are the same distances from the rear wall and the side walls. But to no avail as the room is causing the issue.

    Since I design my own speakers I can attenuate each driver to make sure the image is centered which often results in different attenuation rates for the left and right channels. Now my center image is exactly on center.

    An SPL meter could help but using your ears is much more accurate.

    If you have the guts - open up your speakers and check the crossovers and the wiring - wires can fall off or become dislodged. Also check that the crossovers are in good shape with no bulges or leaks at the capacitors - although it is rare for caps to go bad in this type of use - power caps are a different beast!

    I hope this is of some help.
     
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  16. FJC1966

    FJC1966 The Prestonian

    Location:
    Lancashire, U.K.
    Simple step to check if the issue is source or speaker related - simply plug in headphones, if the issue still persists - you'll have your answer
     
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  17. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    I agree that variation in room gain is the likely culprit, though sometimes a pair of speakers are just not well matched from the factory. Usually the latter only applies to cheap speakers.

    If you play that lame song, Ballad of the Runaway Horse, from the Blue Raincoat album, Jennifer Warnes’ voice should be dead center.

    IME, toe-in doesn’t affect image balance quite as much as one might expect. Distance to the listener and distance to wall boundaries has a greater effect.

    The volume control in your Yamaha is definitely not the culprit, though a slight mismatch between amp channel gain could be. If a component is at fault then basic troubleshooting logic will reveal which one.
     
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  18. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Thanks. If it's room gain, how can it be fixed?
     
  19. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    all sources?
    is this a new discovery?
     
  20. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    I have only one source. Not a new discovery.
     
  21. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    i have been plagued by this in the past and it drives me crazy, especially if only part of the frequency band is of center or wanders. do your best to make them equal distance from all significant boundaries behind and on either side. try to do the same for your seating position- an open area behind you to the right or left will affect the speaker's relative volume.
    do your best to balance physically and then adjust the balance as needed.
     
  22. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Thanks, does using the balance adversely affect the sound at all, like the tone controls do?
     
  23. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    Do the mono record test first. That will cover a multitude of sins.

    M~
     
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  24. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    I did. The image is not fully centered. Its a bit to the left.
     
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  25. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    Then with that as your source start adjusting toe in to see what kind of difference that makes. I had the same problem. I ended with putting the speakers at 1/3 of the room and a decent amount and from thet side walls an then adjusting the toe in to get into the game. Once I got close it I put painter's tape on the floor for a r reference. Good luck it will take sometime to get it right.

    M~
     

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