How to get proper sound on headphones ?

I listened to the Count Basie YouTube video this evening using my good headphone setup (Cavalli Liquid Glass headphone amp with Psvane CV181-TII tubes, Audeze LCD-2 Classic headphones, Schiit Gungnir multibit DAC) . And it sounds like it was recorded in an echo-y garage. I can clearly hear the extra echo and room sound with the headphones.

The audio in that video actually sounds a bit like DSP that does speaker modeling for headphones. Similar to the Out Of Your Head speaker modeling software, but with speakers modeled in an echo-y room. The Out Of Your Head software modeling sounds OK when modeling well recorded/modeled speakers in a good room. The Count Basie recording sounds like it is run through the Out Of Your Head software while modeling a poorly recorded/modeled room that is too echo-y.

You might want to try the Out Of Your Head software demo and play the Count Basie CD through it while using a good speaker modling preset. See if you like that result better than the YouTube version by sv ka.

I don't own the CD that the Count Basie song is on. I did listen to this version of the song on YouTube. And it sounds better to me on my good headphone setup than the version by sv ka. I haven't tried listening to it using one of my lesser headphone amps yet. The lesser amps are better at revealing if the recording is too wide and separated and missing the center. The good amps fill in the center somewhat similar to how speaker listening fills in the center. That's one of the reasons I like my good amps and consider them well worth the extra money over the lesser amps. The lesser amps sound like everyone thinks headphones sound like. My good amps fill in the center and image outside of my head more similar to how nearfield speaker listening sounds.

 

Wow! That Fat Mama song as in that YouTube video has really really really flat imaging. If the actual CD sounds like that then that is a very poorly recorded and mastered CD. Very very flat. No imaging depth at all.

I don't own that CD. But my local library has two versions in two masterings. I'll get the two from my library and compare. Hopefully the CDs sound better than that YouTube audio. Cause that YouTube audio would be an embarrassment if a professional audio engineer recorded that and a professional mastering engineer mastered that.

 

Really comes down to the hardware, volume and the record.

 

That YouTube Basie link is the exact sounding CD file I have listening on my Sony V6's and 2010 Mac Mini.

Thanks for "Out Of Your Head" link. It reveals a little more on what's going on with various listening system setups. You hearing an echo-y garage sound on the sv ka recorded Basie version on your headphone/amp setup makes it uncertain whether the influence is from a software driven DSP over a hardware effect (That's one long list of hardware you relayed here. I got lost in figuring out what the heck you were listening on).

But the fact that it is the exact reverse effect of what I hear on my headphones vs my '72 Sansui 2000A amp/speakers setup appears be more of a electronic (hardware) circuitry influence. Software rarely shows a consistency on how it acts on hardware among different brands of listening systems. The "Out Of Your Head" video demo of sample speaker/room arrangement setups show a lot of nasal sounding midrange tonal distortion with a hard roll off cut on highs similar to what I hear in surround sound movie theaters but there's really no realistic sounding reverb effect. It's just speaker imaging placement similar to studio sound mixing where to place multiple instruments/vocals in a circular but centered stereo imaging stage.

The sv ka Basie video sounds more like wide open room with very subtle reflections and very little echo listening on my Sony V6's. IOW there is a sweet presence that hangs in the air very similar to Capitol Record's use of their famous echo chamber recording Dean Martin I heard in a documentary about that that recording studio.

Here's an example of this sort of echo-less reverb from Capitol Records around the time the industry was experimenting with early stereo technology (listen in HD)...


I had to download the Amazon mp3 of the entire album since there was no CD available.

Note that there's no real echo or off axis arrangement of instruments to give any directional placement within the stereo image but there does seem to be a big wide openness that hangs in the air. You may not hear this on your headphones. I do and the instruments are up front and not receding within the back staging among heavy echoing. The "Out Of Your Head" video doesn't possess this quality of sound.

 

Yeah, I agree with everything you said about the recording and mastering. And what's especially sad is that according to all the reissues and Japan remasterings listed at Discog they didn't fix anything.

And sellers are asking over $20 for the CD. I certainly didn't pay that much for mine.

I tried to do a channel swap dupe to mono so the drums are playing on both channels but it mashes all the other instruments on top of each other creating a murky sound.

 

Here's another example of exquisite echo-less reverb technique harking back around 50 years. Sounds gorgeous on my Sony V6 headphones like music to fly by...


I just hope anyone listening on their headphones doesn't hear a cavernous echo-y sound and backward sound stage. Gotta' listen in HD.

 

I mention the gear I used because when describing headphone sound that does this sort of room sound and ambiance the gear used is very important. Some headphone gear will do this sort of sound and most won't. The Liquid Glass headphone amp is a hybrid that is able to do a bit of the sonic holography style of tube sound, depending on the tubes used in the amp. Some full tube amps are able to do the sonic holography thing better, but for a hybrid the Liquid Glass does really well. The tube sound and bit of sonic holography helps make the room ambiance more audible on headphones. So that's the reason I mentioned the amp and tubes used. If you repeated this listening test using a typical solid state amp and typical headphones you probably won't hear what I'm hearing, or you'd just hear hints.

The inconvenient truth of headphones is that headphones are not very good at letting you hear room ambiance and size and proper room reverb. Even the best headphone setups are not very good at this. Many headphone setups don't even do it at all. This is one area where speakers do much better. Find a speaker setup that is able to pass Steve's midrange purity test and you'll have a setup that lets you hear ambiance and reverb and such better than even a $5000 headphone system. That midrange purity test is a difficult test for headphones to pass. Speakers systems can pass that test easier and much more dramatically.

That's one reason why it is not a good idea to mix or master using headphones. Headphones are just not that good at allowing you to properly hear the room and room ambiance and reverb and such. Good headphones can allow you to hear all that, but not in a way that would allow for proper mixing and mastering decisions.

 

Not sure where you got the idea my amp and speakers system can't reproduce ambiance and reverb. The Bill Perkins and Lex Baxter YouTube links sound almost the same on my Sony phones and my solid state vintage amp and two way speakers. It's just the Sony V6's have less of an echo and more of that "reach in and touch the space" ambient reverb as Steve pointed out about the Bing Crosby midrange test on his system.

And I have to really thank you for posting the link to the test. It tells me that this is a real thing that folks notice in sound quality. My Sony V6 on my Mac Mini played the trailing off echo at 27: but it was very subtle. Had to increase volume to bring it out. I've ordered the CD which didn't cost very much and will test my '72 Sansui 2000A and speakers played on my Technics CD player.

And you're right about editing music on my Sony headphones especially when adding reverb because I tend to over do it but can't tell if my ears have adapted to tweaking too long or that the Sony's just don't have a pronounced enough midrange that I know enough is enough. I use Apple's AU Matrix Reverb plugin on my Mac Mini. It's really pretty good but I can't seem to find the right settings to get that subtle "reach in and touch the space" effect. And on other styles of reverb I can't apply more than 5% wet/dry adjusts. IOW just barely apply it. A little bit goes a long way listening on an amp/speaker system.

You've been very helpful, Ham, and made it a very interesting learning experience. Thanks.

 

If'the effect is very subtle then it isn't happening. When you hear it happen for real with a good speaker system you'll understand. It's not subtle. You'll hear that suddenly Bing is singing in a large space for a second, and then back to normal. Once you hear it happen well on speakers you'll realize that headphones don't do that well at all. And most can't. If you do hear something happen on headphones at that point in the song you'll be able to hear that something turned on for a second and then turned off. But just hearing that momentary glitch isn't what the effect is and what you are listening for.

The other problem with headphone listening for this effect is that it is as much a mind game as it is a test of the gear. The way the acoustic space expands for a second really teases the brain when listening on headphones. It's not a brain tease on speakers. But on headphones it very much is a brain tease.

When Steve first posted about the Bing Crosby test I tried it on my headphone system and I heard the space bloom out really well (really well for headphones). I was excited. It happened. And was obvious. That effect happened a couple of times. And then I listened to it again. And the obvious blooming of space wasn't there any more. I could still hear that the effect was happening, but that obvious blooming of space in the recording went away. The gear stayed the same. My ears stayed the same. What happened is that my brain quickly adapted. My brain expected the sound to bloom at that point and pretty much killed the effect. That's why I say that hearing this effect on headphones is a brain tease. I haven't been able to fully hear the effect happen on headphones since. Even on gear that I know can do it. Hearing space, ambiance and room sound on headphones is part brain tease. Hearing space, ambiance and room sound on good speakers is not a brain tease. It happens much more naturally with speaker listening than headphone listening.

Even just hearing this effect on headphones that can do the effect is a challenge. A challenge that isn't there with speakers. For the type of remixing and remastering you're trying to do with adding reverb and such you should do all that work using good monitoring speakers rather than headphones. I'm a super big fan of headphone listening. There are many things that I think headphones do really really well. But using headphones to monitor the type of work you're doing on recordings is not one of things that headphones do well.

 

I listened again to the Crosby video and my ears didn't adapt. I can still hear the subtle trail off of an echo every time. I understand about sensory adaptation with both listening (editing music) and seeing (adjusting for the desired white balance processing Raw photos on a calibrated display before my eyes adapt to the overall white balance of the image). It's like chasing your tail and it gets frustrating.

After thinking through all that's been discussed about midrange reproduction affecting the sound quality of reverb effect and the fact that you hear an overly echo-y reverb effect in the Basie video that I don't hear on my headphones but do hear on my loud speakers, there must be a lot of reverb effect music that sounds over emphasized and artificial.

Are you hearing a very pronounced echo sound in the last two video's? I hear a big wide open space with very subtle echo trails on the instruments. It's a very desirable sound and it's because I'm listening on supposedly midrange weak Sony V6 on a Mac Mini.

The midrange Crosby test tests for midrange reproduction so if one fails there's still going to be some music that sounds improved in regard to reverb and some that sounds like crap. What I'm getting at is if I had a system that passed that test and bloomed like you described, those two last videos that have a desirable big wide open space sound with very little echo would not sound so good.

 

Er..What?

Would you know when you've been sent out on a snipe hunt in these threads?

It requires you question authority. And drill down asking the right questions.

No one seems to do that in these threads or at least do it effectively.

 

lol .

 

I'm as cool as a cucumber. I just like asking questions and learning new things. It's what separates us from animals.

Keep on laughing. I'm here to entertain and engage.