If you are having turntable hum noise issues, consider a different phono cable

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by psulioninks, Oct 16, 2019.

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  1. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Seems sensible I suppose, but I feel many try to resolve the issue with their equipment by other means and sometimes fail.

    For the record, I use a VPI Super Prime Scout + Nagaoka MP500 MM cartridge with Pangea phono cables running to a McIntosh MP1oo phono stage which sends its output to both my preamp and a Tascam DA-3000 ADC recorder. The phono cable ground was in use from the terminal box of the VPI to the MP100.

    Here's what happened to me...

    About two weeks ago, I was working on my laptop in my listening room after ripping a record and my phono stage and ADC were still on. I happened to look over and noticed every 30 seconds or so, the first LED meter on the left channel of my Tascam DA-3000 would light up briefly and then go away until it happened again in another 30 seconds or so. If the Tascam and phono stage had not been on, I would have never noticed this. Hmmm

    This past weekend, I decided to swap my Nagaoka out for my Audio-Technica AT33EV cartridge. After mounting and adjusting it, I swapped the phono cables which were on the MM inputs to the MC inputs on the MP100. As soon as I turned everything on, I noticed a single green LED lit on the left channel of the Tascam and two green LEDs lit on the right channel. I put my head next to the right speaker and I could hear a hum coming thru - not so much with the left speaker.

    In the sake of trying to keep this as short as I can, I made a vinyl recording and found there was indeed noise. I tried moving power cables and even running them to different outlets - nothing made the lights on the Tascam disappear. The only thing that had an affect was when I touched or moved the ground cable leading to the MP1oo. When I removed it I could get the noise down to one light in each channel. Hmmm

    After an hour of frustration, I remembered that I still had the phono cable that came with the SME M2-9 tonearm I had purchased for my previous turntable. So, off came the Pangea cable and on went the SME cable. Hooked it all up and BOOM! no lights on the Tascam and no humming noise on the next recording I made.

    Now, I am not bashing the Pangea cable...it's one of the most affordable phono cables out there, and I have been happy with their other cables I have purchased. But clearly in my system...with my special blend of components, their phono cable was not playing nice.

    I do want to find another reasonably priced phono cable to use as I plan to sell the SME tonearm and cable at some point. I am not sure if I should look for another dedicated phono cable or try the separate ground cable made my Audioquest that you can use in conjunction with regular interconnects. Thoughts?

    I just wanted to share my experience with others here and convey that sometimes you can relocate equipment, change the power outlets they are on, experiment with various grounding methods, etc....only to discover that the only way to fix your problem is to use a different piece of equipment - in this case my phono cable.

    Sigh...gotta love this hobby!
     
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  2. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Mogami.
    One word.
    Buy the best you can afford.
    I make my own.
    I have use expensive leads.
    But because of high impedance of phono
    Requirements good screening.
    Mogami best i have used.
     
    BlackPearl likes this.
  3. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Bill Whitlock (CTO of Jensen Transformers) has the position that an audio chain should produce only noise (ie hiss) and that hum and buzz should be inaudible below that.

    That is a tough ask for a MC phono input. If the nominal cartridge output is 300uV at 5cm/sec, hiss will be about 70 dB below that at least. That is <95nV of broadband hiss. If you want hum and buzz to be 10dB lower than that <47nV of hum and buzz. Which is a tiny voltage - 1nV is a thousandth of a microvolt, and you need at most 47 of those.

    So Thorensman has it nailed - screening has to be of the highest standard. And grounding is number two on the list to prevent currents in the screen adding hum and buzz. Or go balanced.
     
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  4. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I wonder if something is off or simply different about the grounding arrangement of the Pangea cable that doesnt sit well with your gear.
     
  5. CoolJazz

    CoolJazz Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eastern Tennessee
    Sounds like a cell phone refresh pulse to me.

    CJ
     
  6. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    Whatever one thinks about boutique interconnects, in my experience they can run afoul of the "first, do no harm" principle when used in phono applications. You want the emphasis to be on shielding and grounding. Page long descriptions of dielectrics and mysteries of metallurgy have no place in that space.
     
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  7. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    I can't say...all I know is the Pangea cable looks like a much more substantial item than the SME cable...but my system does not care for it.
     
  8. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Looks can be deceiving. You'd have to cut it open and examine the construction. Anyone can put a braided jacket over a cable to make it look thicker. One criticism I've seen of some audiophile cables is that the shielding, even if it is well done, is only connected at one end rather than both and that can introduce issues in some systems.

    Personally I wouldn't buy any phono cable that wasn't well shielded and low capacitance. Pangea doesn't even list the capacitance or any other electrical spec for their cable.
     
  9. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    LOL, I just read this on the Audio Advisor page for the Pangea phono cable...

    Exceptionally Low Noise Performance with Any High-End Audio Turntable

    ...For nearly fifty years, all turntables came with a dedicated cable running straight from the tonearm base to the phono stage. In the last ten years, however, more and more popular selling turntables – such as the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, for example – have been designed with RCA outputs on the back of the turntable.

    This welcome design change allows users to choose whichever audio interconnect cable they wanted, but the benefits come with a big problem. For best sound, there should be a separate ground wire running from the turntable back to the preamp. But 99.99% of the quality audio cables on the market lack this necessary grounding wire. Several companies introduced interconnects with a separate ground wire, but these grounding cables were not integrated into the cable. Instead, they were fixed outside of the cable, resulting in a less than idea grounding solution.

    Grounds for a Superior Ground

    Pangea Audio tasked veteran cable designer Jay Victor with creating a special cable that incorporated the turntable grounding wire into the interconnect cable’s shield layer. Jay accepted the challenge, but he soon discovered why no manufacturer had accomplished this before. It proved extremely difficult to incorporate the grounding wire into the cable and still have access to it on both ends.

    After a year of trial and error, Jay’s team finally produced a prototype that seemed to meet all of Jay’s strict requirements. Jay sent out a group of samples to a close-knit group of audiophiles around the world. Everyone loved the sound of the prototypes – expect for one individual who detected a faint hum when the cable was placed in close proximity to a group of inexpensive wall-wart power supplies powering his system. It turns out there were more than five noisy power supplies in total, so this was an unusual situation. But, no matter. Jay went back to the drawing board to eliminate the hum.


    Unique Twin-Lead Design

    It took another year and several more prototypes. Eventually Jay was not only able to silence the hum, but he also made a cable that to all the tester’s ears sounded even better than the previous version.

    The Pangea Audio Premier SE Turntable Cable is a unique twin-lead audio cable with integrated ground and wire management. Premier SE features highest purity Cardas Grade One Copper and OFC conductors. The unique configuration of conductors features multi-gauge conductors with PE dielectric and dual-layered shielding for both right and left channels, delivering exceptionally low noise performance with any high-end audio turntable.

    Based on the advanced engineering specifications and product development timeline, the Premier SE Phono Cable should be priced much higher at $200. Due to Pangea Audio’s volume purchasing power and aggressive pricing strategy, we are pleased to bring this cable to you for less than $100. Needless to say, you won't find a better turntable cable at anywhere near the price – or even by spending way, way more.
     
  10. Dude111

    Dude111 An Awesome Dude

    Location:
    US
    Could speakers also cause this??

    One time one of my speakers was connected and there was NO HUM in the other one.....

    I dunno.... If there is an impedence mismatch??
     
  11. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I've always been curious as to whom Audio Advisor fluff works on. Are there people who read that and think "that's what I've always admired about noted cable designer I've definitely heard of Jay Victor - he never backs down from a challenge!"

    Also, in regards to taking a year to imbed a ground wire into an interconnect, what does Jay's average work day look like?
     
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  12. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    No...not speakers.
     
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  13. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    I decided to go the "separates" route. I ordered an AudioQuest Evergreen interconnect cable along with their Saturn GroundGoody cable. We will see how they work in my system...
     
  14. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    There's nothing special about the ground wire in a phono set up. It's just a wire connecting the metal mechanical parts of the tonearm and turntable -- the arm tube, the bearings, the mounting, etc. the main bearing well -- to system ground. Any low resistance wire will do the job equally well, as long as it's well connected at the source end and connected to a good low impedance ground at the other end. Get a piece of 12 AWG wire and connect it at both ends and you're done. Don't spend audiophile money on a ground wire.

    There can be funky issues with turntable grounding though -- depending on if the phono cart body is also grounded to the arm tube, or depending on the resistance of the connection between circuit ground and that chassis grounding post. Plus you have an unusual set up with a phono pre output signal driving two different loads (presumably possibly with two different chassis ground potentials). So you really need to diagnose the source of the problem before just plugging things in and hoping for a solution.

    Of course, your noise problem could have nothing whatsoever to do with that ground cable and everything to do with the signal cable shielding.

    For phono applications, usually the best bet it double braided-shielded coax, and some kind of dielectric that results in low capacitance. I don't know that the Audioquest Evergreen is an ideal choice for a phono cable -- I see it's a twinax, not a coax. That means it's probably higher capacitance than a similar coax. Plus, it has what AQ, in mumbo jumbo marketing speak, calls "asymmetrical double-balanced geometry." I'm not sure what exactly that means, but I think it means shielded twinax cable with the shield floating at one end. That's a poor geometry for phono. If that in fact is the geometry of that AQ, I wouldn't be surprised if you had hum using that cable in a phono application. Better off with the shield connected at both ends, with the lowest resistance shield possible (so double braided copper instead of foil or copper and foil) and with the shield run up as close to the RCA as possible -- so no use of a drain wire or anything like that in construction.
     
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  15. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Well, I was able to make the Pangea cable increase or decrease the hum simply by touching and moving the ground cable itself...repositioning the interconnect had no affect...so there must be something odd with that ground cable in relation to how it functions with the cable itself.

    The other thing is...I can't tell you the make-up of the SME cable I am using that is dead quiet...but however it is constructed, it works in my set-up.

    Prior to ordering the Evergreen, I read a lot of customer reviews that solved their hum/noise issues using it...so perhaps it will work - it was one of the cheapest options. I ordered the cables from HCM on Amazon and they will arrive tomorrow. If they don't work, no harm...back to Amazon they will go and I will try something else.
     
  16. Bolster

    Bolster If it ain't broke try harder..

    Location:
    UK
    I've just tamed the dreaded hum at last (I hope) I think the transformer in my turntable may not have been playing nicely with my phono preamp so I grudgingly moved it to a tall unit away from the main system.

    Feng shui totally ruined, but quieter. Also I had to sort out some longer cables (fisual) from my stash, which it turns out have some pretty heavy duty shielding and they seem to have helped to reduce the hum a fraction more.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
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  17. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Outstanding...I am all about fixing issues - glad it seems to be working for you!
     
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  18. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    So, the Evergreen and GroundGoody cables from AudioQuest arrived today. Disconnected the SME cabling and replaced it with the new ones.

    Drum roll please...

    No noise! Perhaps there is something wrong with the Pangea cable I have...or it just isn't a good match with my equipment. Regardless, I am happy to find a solution to my noise issue that was actually slightly cheaper than the Pangea phono cable.

    As Dire Straits would say...

    Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger baby
    Sometimes you're the ball
    Sometimes it all comes together baby
     
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  19. Bolster

    Bolster If it ain't broke try harder..

    Location:
    UK
    I often think that tweaking and fault finding, with all its highs and lows is a major part of the HiFi..(me) / audiophile.. (not me) experience :D
     
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  20. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    What Chervokas says about grounding
    Screen at both ends i find true.
    When i build a cable using screen ground at one end only i did have a slight hum.
    That type of arrangement ok for cd.
    Mogami nothing special. Well made
    With good screening.
    Because its inexpensive its overlooked.
    In more than one turntable i have
    Serviced i have re arranged grounding.
    As Chervokas says grounding is straight forward, but sometimes silly errors
    Happen.
     
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