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If you DON”T believe in nice speaker wire or interconnects please don't come into this thread

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Funky54, Feb 21, 2021 at 5:07 PM.

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  1. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Fish tacos.

    Location:
    San Diego
  2. Lenny99

    Lenny99 The truth sets you free.

    Location:
    Clarksburg WV
    Hi;

    I just purchased new upgraded wire from Crutchfield.

    I was on the phone with one of their techs about a different issue when I brought up the subject of upgrading wire. He encouraged me to check on their own brand speaker wire. He was with tech support and perhaps had less of a vested interest. In any case, I gave them a look and ordered 2 pair with a 60 day guarantee. It turns out their name brand speaker wire is very good. Especially for a budget minded buyer. It’s 14 gauge, shielded and made with pure copper. There are nice banana plugs on both ends.

    I a ask so purchased their name brand phono interconnects to replace my phono cable, but I had problems with hum. I think that was an issue with my cart, because the cables worked fine with my secondary system. For my primary system, I then purchased Fusion interconnects. They make a surprisingly good wire. It’s interconnect is shielded, gold plated, and directional.

    Finally, I went with the Audioquest ground wire. It was the only upgraded ground wire available through Crutchfield and I wanted to keep the purchase with them. It’s a really nice ground. The end hooks are fitted to sit flat against the base of the object’s nut connection, it’s shielded and also directional.

    So far, all is well.
     
    Rick58 likes this.
  3. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    A quote from the $120k cables.
    He is rating the obvious: R, C, L change when energized. Yep
    They change with freq
    R no
    C no, is constant, but it's REACTANCE changes with freq = 1/(2 Pi f C) with a -90 phase shift
    L, nope constant, but again, it's reactance changes = 2 Pi f L and +90 phase shift.

    I read the brochure and 2 interviews.
    My skepticism doubled. He was a car mechanic.
    The fact that he thinks he knows more about signal transmission (that is ALL we are talking about) than PhD's in the subject matter is a hoot. He found his 'thing', more power to him, but that does not change the laws of physics, they can't be changed.


    "They say there are only minute amounts of capacitance and inductance, and these minute elements cannot affect the audio frequency range. Viewing it in that way, they are absolutely correct. But these elements change when we pass current through them — they change with frequency, they have para- sitics, they resonate, and that’s where the prob- lems start."
     
  4. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    Here's the patent, it's dry, I read it
    It was abandoned

    US20090227142A1 - Audio connector with ganged articulation networks - Google Patents

    his basic thrust is Q must be constant
    Q is the inverse of dampening factor
    Basically speaker Z/(amp output Z + cable Z)
    The higher the better, ie, the less influence on freq response as speaker Z changes with freq

    It does not need to constant, only high enough to dampen freq response deviations induced by Z changes. As Z changes the amp must respond with more power quickly to control the speaker.
    The lower the amp output Z the easier its output flows

    My amp is rated Df 40 over a wide band
    Over 10 is acceptable, over 20 good
    That makes my amps output ~0.1 Ohm for a 4 Ohm speaker
    20x2 ft #12 ~ 0.07 Ohm, so it will reduce it to 25
    But at speaker Z > 4 Ohm it improves.
     
  5. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    I bet a lot of people would pick zip cord over that stuff. Seriously.
     
  6. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    As long as 14-12 AWG, short rum, good terminations, likely.

    Those boxes ADD to the signal, they are L, C, R networks.

    Power is comprised of 2 types, real and reactive
    Real = work
    Reactive = charging for L and C, the current resonates between them, can't do work.
    Total power VA = W + VAr
    Math S = P + jQ or S/pf angle
    S = total power, P = real or active, Q reactive or imaginary.
    Angle = arctan Q/R
    Phase angle is the diff between I and V
    If 1 all real power, if 0 all reactive

    But these cables primarily C and it's reactance is >10,000 Ohms
    So phase shift is 90 deg for ALL freq 20-20000 Hz.

    When phase is not 0 you have reactive power. The speaker needs it to operate, the amps caps supply it. The speakers are L, C and R

    This is not magic, it is well established science.

    The argument is the reactive power/current flowing between speaker and amp somehow affects the signal. It is NOT a separate thing colliding with the incoming real power, they are fused as one wave and separated by the phase angle.

    He is basing this on a HV power grid concept.
    When you have a large fault, short circuit, lightening, etc. as the impulse hits what is called a surge Z, tower, change in wire size, etc
    At this point some of the wave WILL be reflected, colliding with the incoming, sometimes adds, some times cancels.
    It will ring back and forth until R dampens it or shunted to ground.
    But we are talking 10's of miles of cable and 10's of 1000's of amps. And this happens on a single ungrounded conductor. Speaker wire is a grounded pair
     
  7. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    I dont claim to understand that but it does sound about right to me :) and I do stand behind my opinion in #180. As long as it is not copper clad aluminum zip cord. :) Heck maybe more than half would prefer zip cord. That would be an interesting experiment.
     
  8. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    Done. Double-blind on those that own and believe in expensive cables = lamp cord preferred. The Audio Society of Minnesota Conducts Cable Comparison Tests
     
    Ingenieur and Ilusndweller like this.
  9. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    I see Whoopycat is watching, thanks again for the Black Cat Lectraline speaker cables (Steve Hoffman approved is good enough for me:))! I am listening to them now with my new Rogue Sphinx 2 (full throttle) and Carver Amazing Silvers. :edthumbs:
     
    Rick58 and Tullman like this.
  10. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor.

    Nice provocative thread title you’ve got there! :D
    Looks like saltminers have become quite common on the web, in these times of lockdowns and boredom :goodie:
     
    woodpigeon likes this.
  11. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor.

    Exactly!
     
  12. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor.

    I had some AQ Big Sur RCA cables.
    Those are the opposite, stiff braided cables and bad performers.
    I used one as phono cable, but when I required a longer cable (moved equipment because of painting the house), I switched to some random ProCab Reference cable... and holy crappadoodle it sounded so much better.
    I experimented with my phono preamp capacitive loading and found out that I could make it sound just like the AQ Big Sur by setting the load capacitance real high (330pF instead of 150pF).
    Unfortunately I can’t measure cable capacitance anymore since my LCR meter was among the tools that got stolen.
    Later on, I plugged the Big Sur back in and did a recording... noisefloor was at -58dB.
    Put the cheapo cable back in, noisefloor at -63dB.

    So my conclusion is:
    They look nice, but the capacitance and shielding isn’t good enough.
     
    Ilusndweller likes this.
  13. izeek

    izeek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    md
    I wasn't part of this convo but I wouldn't mind that list, please. I usually like Cazul 1000 extra anejo and Manik.
     
  14. izeek

    izeek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    md
    Didn't know that about tequila.
     
  15. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    fish likes this.
  16. Funky54

    Funky54 Coat Hangers do not sound good Thread Starter

    See page 5. I had a number PM me so I put it right in the thread. I also left out El Padrino from that list . Their blanco, Reposada Dwn Extra Anjeo are all excellant.
     
    izeek and Tourswede like this.
  17. SBurke

    SBurke Nostalgia Junkie

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    But can you prove the various bottles and their shapes make any difference as to taste
     
    izeek and Rick58 like this.
  18. bluesky

    bluesky Forum Resident

    Location:
    south florida, usa
    Bought a used pair of 1980 Sansui 'High-Efficiency' black jacketed, 23' long, speaker cables 15 years ago and never looked back. Just Wow. Loved them so much I bought a 2nd NOS back-up pair and found 2 pair of the matching NOS 1980 'High-Efficiency' black jacketed 1.3 M interconnects with gold RCAs.

    Works for me. :righton:

    The speaker cables are very hard to find but they do come up for sale every once in a while, like once every 2 or 3 years. I've only seen 2 pairs of the interconnects ever come up for sale in the last 20 years - I bought them both. To find the NOS speaker cables and NOS interconnects was just a fluke, just totally lucked out on those.

    Also just received just last month, from Buyee Japan, a pair of Sansui 'High Efficiency' low capacitance TT cables with ground wire. Beyond super rare. I don't need them but what a find! Couldn't turn it down. I've never seen another pair for sale ever in any country, anywhere.

    It's all BIG fun! :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021 at 2:45 PM
    Rick58 likes this.
  19. Lenny99

    Lenny99 The truth sets you free.

    Location:
    Clarksburg WV
    Being pretty new to the hobby, (this March, 3 years,)I was at first a little skeptical about wires. But after looking into the issue, reading some articles and a few books, I came to the conclusion that wires/cables do matter.

    So, I purchased wires/cables of a much better type then what came with the equipment. My upgrades are not close to high end. Prob as someone wrote to me on another thread, “you just got your foot in the door.....”.

    But I can say they do make an audible difference. The sound is a little deeper, warmer, distinct, or perhaps the best description is, it has a little more energy.

    At least that’s how it sounds to my ears.
     
    Rick58 and bluesky like this.
  20. After staying up all night and doing the math on this, I think my ebay 8 ga. cable is fine.

    [​IMG] = = ebay sourced 8 ga cable with banana connectors

     
    SBurke, Agitater, Rick58 and 2 others like this.
  21. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    Remember I discussed surge impedance?

    The characteristic impedance or SURGE impedance of a uniform transmission line is the ratio of the amplitudes of voltage and current of a single wave propagating along the line; that is, a wave travelling in one direction in the absence of reflections in the other direction.

    I found this when looking for info on the Sansui speaker cables.
    1. Ultra-wide frequency range of DC (Zero Hertz) to 400kHz (+/-0.5dB), and phase response of DC to 300 kHz (less than 10 degrees).
    2. Ultra-Low DC resistance (8.7m ohms/m for "+"cable and 11.6m ohms for "-" cable.
    3. Sansui exclusive three layer braided conductor construction for best transfer characteristics.
    4. Ideal characteristic (or SURGE) impedance of 12 ohms for best impedance matching with amp and speaker.
    5. Unplated wire surface for improved tone quality.
    6. High-Density braided conductor (90%) coverage for minimum skin effect, proximity effect, crosstalk, and noise pickup.
    7. 99.96% or more pure elastic copper wire.
    8. Terminal ends moulded with elastic PVC.

    Assume 20' cable, the reflected wave must travel 40' to recombine with the speaker input at a propagation velocity of ~0.5 c
    t = 40 nSec or 24 MHz
    Your ear can discern neither
    If we convert this to a sampling rate of 44100 it will be 0.0018 sample
    It will not contain a single 20,000 cycle
    Only 0.0008 cycles of one 20,000 Hz tone
    It will be greatly attenuated (on the order of 90+ dB) and will not distort the wave the wave that cause the reflection because it has already 'played', made sound, yielded its power.

    People can do as they please.
    And I can think as I please. $120k speaker cables are obscene imo in a world where children starve. Those cables distort the signal and impart coloration....intentionally.

    I have no doubt people hear things, look at the different way people look at facts, some believe them, some don't (flat Earth for example).
    More power to them, but don't blow smoke up my @$$ and call it sunshine lol
     
    bluesky and Rick58 like this.
  22. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    Big mistake, that formula tells you ziltch about how the cable will sound. Additionally, you are not allowed to post objectionable material. Particularly on this thread because the measurement obsessed individuals that invade cable threads might get too much stimulation.
     
    Rick58 and Ilusndweller like this.
  23. Funky54

    Funky54 Coat Hangers do not sound good Thread Starter

    Actually I can...
     
  24. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    There is a scientific explanation for that. :)
     
  25. Funky54

    Funky54 Coat Hangers do not sound good Thread Starter

    Those tires with belts showing are completely safe for race car drivers in the rain. The law of physics prove they are round just like expensive ones. Science has won a great triumph.

    Research proved the 75% of the people surveyed made up 3/4 of the results.
     
    Uglyversal and Rick58 like this.
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