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If you DON”T believe in nice speaker wire or interconnects please don't come into this thread

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Funky54, Feb 21, 2021 at 5:07 PM.

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  1. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    1 I showed typical speaker cable is a filter, rolling off at 1.5 MHz

    2 average 12 AWG DC R from NEC
    6.5 Ohm/Km or 6.5 mOhm/m, LOWER!
    14 AWG is 10. 3 mOhm.

    3 ???

    4 surge Z = 12 Ohm, will be the same for ANY wire of the same size and means nothing in this realm.
    Zs = sqrt(L/C)
    Typical speaker wire
    L = 0.15 uH
    C 15 pF
    Zs = 100
    It does not matter: because there are 3 Zs involved: cable, speaker, amp

    Fig 9.7 shows the wave or signal response
    For V the reflected subtracts from the incoming
    For I it adds, in this illustration, this depends on the Zs

    Assume Za to be the wire, Zb the speaker:
    typical speaker Zb will vary, from 0 to +/- 4
    So most of the power is reflected!! 96/104 x V1
    Bad? No, this is reactive power being returned/exchanged, this is what you want.

    You can see in the 120k cable literature buzz words like 'lumped'. This is all meaningless.

    5, 6, 7, 8 ???

    All I'm trying to do is give information to make an informed opinion. Some 'hear' a difference. I attempt to show why imo there is none.
    Music time

    1. Ultra-wide frequency range of DC (Zero Hertz) to 400kHz (+/-0.5dB), and phase response of DC to 300 kHz (less than 10 degrees).
    2. Ultra-Low DC resistance (8.7m ohms/m for "+"cable and 11.6m ohms for "-" cable.
    3. Sansui exclusive three layer braided conductor construction for best transfer characteristics.
    4. Ideal characteristic impedance of 12 ohms for best impedance matching with amp and speaker.
    5. Unplated wire surface for improved tone quality.
    6. High-Density braided conductor (90%) coverage for minimum skin effect, proximity effect, crosstalk, and noise pickup.
    7. 99.96% or more pure elastic copper wire.
    8. Terminal ends moulded with elastic PVC.


  2. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    He's kidding
    Uglyversal likes this.
  3. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    LOL, Ok.
    Ilusndweller and Ingenieur like this.
  4. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    But they don't have the same tread depth.
    Which is measurable,
  5. 33na3rd

    33na3rd Forum Resident

    SW Washington, USA
    Supra has other models if you want to go cheaper for the rears.
    I'm on my second set of Supra speaker cables. I started out with the PLY 3.4's and liked them so much that I decided to try their Quadrax cable. Both are very nice, and easy to work with. Very affordable if you terminate them yourself. Some of their IC wire can be purchased raw too. I have not tried their interconnect cable yet.

    Supra's North American Distributor's Ebay store.
    Sjofn HiFi | eBay Stores
  6. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Eagle, ID, USA
    I’ve maybe spent $2000 on cables, much of it recently. Assuming I live another 25 years and can hopefully listen to my stereo that long, that’s less than 25 cents/day. If I only listen every 4 days, that’s $1 per session. Still worth it to me, no amount of math proving it can’t sound better than zip cord will change that.
  7. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Columbus, Ohio
    Remember, this is a thread about stereo cables. No one hates anyone. Except for me who hates anyone who tells me they can hear differences in cables. :uhhuh:
    dcottrell6, Rick58 and Ingenieur like this.
  8. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    A value decision makes sense. It is a hobby.
    I drive my car 1/5th as much now with home office, but I'm not selling it.

    some people like beer, the taste.
    Others think it tastes like crap.
    That does NOT mean the chemical composition of the beer changed, only the interaction with the consumer.
    And that is ok
    Rick58 and Ilusndweller like this.
  9. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    Basic cable engineering
    A wire does not posses L or C, only R is intrinsic property of the material.

    It takes 2 objects to make C or L
    2 wires, 2 plates, 1 wire and ground, etc.

    They are determined by configuration so if they measure the same L or C, the configuration is removed from the equation.
    Coil a wire, increase ckt L

    L and C can be manipulated
    Separate the wires and C decreases, L increases
    And vice versa
    D is spacing between conductors


  10. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    Yes it does.
    Have a chemist analyze it before tasting, not after mixed with the bodies chemistry.
  11. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Not a good example to express your point as different beers -even within the same brand- taste completely different in the same manner cables can sound different too. No formula in either case will tell you how beer taste or cables sound.
  12. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Columbus, Ohio
    Does this assume that the thing that is interacting can be considered a constant?

    That certainly is not true, so maybe they do sound different.

    Which I already stated that I felt some (a small % imho) people can.

    :). stir (sorry bruh:))
    Ingenieur likes this.
  13. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    Does the cable sound different before you hear it?
  14. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Columbus, Ohio
    (playing devil's advocate bc I think what I am about to say is mostly not true except for a lucky few)

    Lets talk a 16 AWG single strand of solid core copper. There are various grades ranging from "el cheapo" to whatever gazillion N's pure Ohno whatever blahblah grain boundary every 422 feet for this particular wire blahblah(i.e. single crystal and yes with perfect surfaces as well).

    While those formulas apply to all of them, they still doesn't tell us how they sound (yes I do believe there are very subtle differences in sound bw them that a lucky few can hear). Nor do I think we have scientific instruments capable of detecting these very subtle differences. I have a hunch we may never have instruments this sensitive. Am I saying that I think cables can affect things like soundstage? Quite possibly (but not really since, remember, I am playing devil's advocate here, but possibly for a select few)

    As far as the cable sounding different before I hear it? More yes than no for sure. Loud and clear. I've learned to make my cables sound like whatever I want them to sound like. ;)
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021 at 5:47 PM
  15. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    It is a signal, no more, no less. And not a very complicated one at that.
    And they can be measured to levels far beyond the resolution of human perception.
    If they measure identical, they will sound identical and measure the same from speaker to mic to scope.
    And the range of parameters L, C and R can be extremes and it may matter measurably but not audibly.
    timind and missan like this.
  16. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident


    It's just beer, just a recipe, no more, no less, you just need to add the same amount of ingredients and surely one made in Mexico will taste identical to one made Finland.
  17. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Columbus, Ohio
    I hear you but I leave open that there could be some uncertainty in that. Not likely, but possible. And I do believe that some (not many) people can hear differences in cable.

    "And they can be measured to levels far beyond the resolution of human perception."

    This is where I could see uncertainty.
    head_unit and Uglyversal like this.
  18. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    That sounds like add from the 80's.
    head_unit likes this.
  19. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    Beer has dozens of ingredients.
    Wire 3
    head_unit likes this.
  20. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    scopes can sample 24 bits depth at MHz sampling rates.
    Can detect 0.001 dB or better level changes.
    Instruments can detect 'noise' hundreds of miles away, hear conversations at hundreds of yards, and filter it thru the noise.
  21. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Three things to make wire? That is not so at all, and even in that case, we are not talking about a plain length of metal.
  22. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Columbus, Ohio
    Let me make clear that I feel the interfaces (connectors) and quality of shielding (realizing some prefer non-shielded) play a far more important role to final sound than the actual wire itself. For RCA connectors, I am a strong believer in low mass, single point connectors like those in the first two groups here.

    Furutech, WBT, KLEI, and ETI Connectors - VH Audio

    Or the original bullet plugs they evolved from.

    ETI Research Bullet Plug RCA - VH Audio
    head_unit likes this.
  23. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    What other parameters are there?
    L, C and R
    head_unit likes this.
  24. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor.

    Even my 40 years old CRT scope can do up to 1MHz, but 0 bit depth lol
    head_unit and Ingenieur like this.
  25. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Columbus, Ohio
    I want to see L, C, and R for various grades of copper wire/cable but they mostly dont publish this.

    Like what are the differences in L, C, and R for AQs perfect surface copper and perfect surface plus copper wire/cable. I wonder why they dont publish these numbers and show they have better numbers than other companies' cables have? :confused:
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021 at 6:24 PM
    head_unit likes this.
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