IGD seem to be common on recent purchases

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Oelewapper, Sep 30, 2020.

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  1. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    I found that sound differences between cartridges are way smaller than it would seem.

    Some time ago I made a recording of 7 different MM cartridges, ranging from 15 bucks to about 600 bucks, checked if all the recordings captured the cartridges properties well enough (on a record without that distortion of course :p).
    Removed the filenames so I couldn't see which cartridge was which, then I quickly switched between files and similarities were "interesting" to say at least...
     
  2. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    Err... there's an executable in that zipfile...
     
  3. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    Yes. It's safe and fine. Been on Vinyl Engine for years. Do not print it to fit the page. You can check the distance on the print out..use some heavier paper.
     
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  4. The Dragon

    The Dragon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Madison, AL
    I sent a couple Nora Jones records back recently for off-center holes and edge warp. I also have a return working on a MFSL Linda Ronstadt record for horrible sound quality all around. Not experiencing any IGD with any of my setups.
     
  5. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    Bad sound quality on MFSL vinyl?
    I always thought that MFSL stands for guaranteed quality?
     
  6. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    The only guarantees in life are death and taxes. Sorry, could not resist.
     
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  7. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    Lol classic joke... :p
     
  8. The Dragon

    The Dragon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Madison, AL
    So did I...
     
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  9. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    Mine have all been pretty awesome except an impulse buy of Foreigner Head Games which is terrible. No wonder they had it on sale half price!
     
  10. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I highly doubt alignment is your issue, nor do I think anything is wrong with your equipment.
     
  11. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Is this one of those gray market public domain Euro pressings? Because that's what it looks like. Don't waste time trying to judge anything with those, and don't waste money on them in the future. My 2 cents.
     
  12. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    Yes, I’m starting to think that I should get the same records but a pressing by a renown label like MoFi or Speakers corner... Top quality AAA on 45 RPM as a solid reference.
     
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  13. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    Yes it is, but the distortion isn’t any different from the other records I’ve listed earlier.
    Maybe not the best example though, because of the surface noise... it was the first one I came across.
     
  14. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Speaker's Corner is probably easier to get in Europe, I'd imagine. Also Sam Records from France have done some great releases, though they don't always do AAA and sometimes it's rougher live/archival stuff. Worth checking out though. Same deal with Pure Pleasure, Org Music, etc.

    Another one that doesn't get talked about as much is Impex. I've got a few and they are stunning. One of them is a reissue of a Japanese jazz guitar album from the 70s that might be the single best sounding record I have (out of ~1300-1400 LPs I have).
     
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  15. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    I have found azimuth to be a large contributor to distortions heard in vinyl. I usually have to go thru several trial rips when I install a phono cartridge in order to get rid of distortions in the upper frequencies - but once dialed in...you are set.

    One thing I feel people struggle with is eye-balling the cartridge or head shell for level and not paying attention to how the stylus is sitting in the groove. Many cartridges are not perfect with respect to how the stylus is mounted.
     
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  16. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    I have Herbie Hancock - Man Child on Speakers Corner from original mastertapes, that one sounds phenomenal.
    Some other records I have on Speakers Corner sound very good too.
    I like analogue Productions too, but are a bit expensive over here... often over 60 euros (about 80 dollars).

    Most people dislike MOV records, but I have some that sound very good, while some are real nasty bodgejobs... It’s really a hit/miss.
    IMO, worth the gamble, considering the price.


    Edit: I’ll take a look at Impex. Never heard about that label before.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
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  17. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I'd check your bearings for excessive play. With the arm secured at the rest, use your thumb and index finger on the arm near the pivot and see if you can detect any movement/knocking by gentle pushing it left and right and up and down, etc.

    Korf had an interesting demo of a Jelco arm vs. one of his own design tracking a very warped Billy Joel album. The Jelco was actually in proper factory order but didn't sound great, and I think the distortion sounded similar to what one may experience due to bearing play, some may think it sounds like IGD.

    These sorts of issues may be too small to hear except when combined. So you might not hear bearing-related noise until the end of the album where you're also tracking fewer IPS. Or when you're listening to something with an enormous warp.
     
  18. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    Just (re)checked the tonearm bearings and locking collar of the SME socket a few days ago.
    All ok.
     
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  19. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Some carts sure are hard to tell apart, but it depends on what you play as well.
    I find the Nagaoka MP 150 and 200 to be very similar for the most part. Only drums, specifically cymbals shimmer more clearly on the 200.
     
  20. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Are we talking sound or pressing quality?
    RTI usually does a great job but everyone makes mistakes.
    As for sound I often feel KWs mastering is too bass heavy and muffled, but not always.
     
  21. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    45 is a superior format, but I suggest you shouldnt get fooled thinking its always better than 33. Many times 33 offers everything on a tape and 45 is just used as a licensing trick.
    Prime example, ORG Coltrane reissues.
     
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  22. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Storm Watcher

    Location:
    near Tampa, FL
    Which Jelco arm did he demo? They have different bearings for different arms...
     
  23. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    I suspect, your records involved have baked in IGD, or if used, damage from less than good equipment or setups in their past, a fineline should track most records accurately without issues. This provided this Concorde is used on a Technics arm, or other 52 mm overhang arm of quality.
     
  24. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Can't remember. You can google "korf audio why bearings matter" and find it.
     
  25. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    Isn't that Century essentially the same as a 2M Bronze? For what it's worth, I once had a 2M Bronze on a Clearaudio Concept/Satisfy arm that presented noticeable inner groove distortion on certain records. I fiddled with alignment for weeks, and even purchased the very nice Clearaudio protractor. I finally brought it back into the dealer for them to re-do the alignment...same problem. I then asked them to try another cartridge, the Concept MC (which I believe has a micro line or similar) and the distortion was eliminated or at least significantly reduced.

    I've learned a few things since then...while alignment is important, certain tips will not trace certain inner grooves without distortion no matter what, i.e. the micro ridge and other advanced shapes do better than conical styli on inner grooves. Further, the type of cartridge (moving magnet vs. moving coil) has a bearing on tracking, with moving magnets usually doing a better job even when the cartridges otherwise have the same compliance. Which finally brings me to the compliance itself, as higher compliance cartridges usually have better tracking, assuming a lighter mass tonearm. For example, the old Stanton and Pickering Stereohedron models like the 881 and 981 have tracking figures of 100µM at only 1 gram VTF, whereas a 2M Bronze is 80µM at 1.5 grams (still not bad though). Some moving coils only hit 60µM at over 2.0 grams, which is very poor IMO. And cost has nothing to do with it.

    It should also be noted that tracing and tracking are not exactly the same, but they are enough related in my experience that the better the tracking, the better the tracing of inner grooves as well, with the tracing getting even better with more advanced stylus shapes like micro ridge, SAS, fritz gyger, etc.
     
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