“Imagine” by John Lennon - Overrated or deservedly praised?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Haristar, Oct 18, 2018.

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  1. Andrew J

    Andrew J Forum Resident

    Location:
    South East England
    I can't see any post here more politically charged than yours.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
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  2. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Hard to get more political than that post, to be honest. And survive un-deleted, as well.
     
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  3. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.”

    It's a great song, but not his best. The album is mediocre, with a few classics (Imagine, Jealous Guy, How Do You Sleep).

    Pretty much any songs off the Plastic Ono Band album rates higher in my book...... that album was his masterpiece IMHO and he bared his soul for all to see. After that album they were all very fair to middling
     
  4. drbryant

    drbryant Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    I agree that it's his most well known song. It may even be more well known that any Beatles song at this point. I also agree that it is not as rich a ballad as some of his others, like "In My Life", "Across the Universe" "Julia" or "Jealous Guy."

    I do think that it's a good thing that young people are introduced to the music of Lennon and the Beatles in some way, though, and if it has to be "Imagine", well, what's wrong with that?
     
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  5. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    Figures there would be the usual nonsensical comments about the lyrics in the thread. Earlier I said, "I'd say that the criticism, especially of the lyrics, is very misconceived."

    The reason that the criticism is misconceived is very simple. The criticism is based on a very simple lack of comprehension. The lyrics aren't saying, "Imagine if I (and a few select other people perhaps) did this in the context of just the society and political system we have instantiated now."

    The lyrics are asking us to envision a very different culture, society, (set of) political system(s).

    One person doesn't make a culture/society/political system. One person, or even a handful of them, can't make the sorts of changes he's talking about.

    The idea is that we could do something very different with the world--anything we'd like to do with it, and all we'd have to do is make the decision to do something different. But we all (or most of us, at least) have to make the decision to do something different. Think of it as being an ocean of sorts, where we could actually make the ocean different merely by deciding to approach it differently. But just one drop, one wave doing something different is going to be negligible for changing the ocean. The whole thing, or most of it, needs to decide to do something different.

    It would be easy if we were to try. But we don't try.
     
  6. beatleroadie

    beatleroadie Forum Resident

    John didn't really "rock" all that much in his solo career. He didn't seem to emphasize it anyway. Except for some harder edge blues rockers, his anthems he had a knack for, but not too much in the way of a classic rock sound or a Beatley fast pop-rock sound. Confessional ballads and mid-tempo pop were his bread & butter in the 70s, so "Imagine" is kind of typical really.

    Even on POB, his supposed "primal scream" record, there are only 3 rockers on that LP, and that's if you include "Mother" which is very very slow, but of course has amazing howling vocals on it. The rest of the tracks are poppy (Hold On, Remember, Isolation) or acoustic and gentle (Working Class Hero, Love, Look at Me).

    John did some great rockers but not a ton of them...I especially love "Meat City" (I think it has the same fun but dark spirit of "Glass Onion" and rocks just as hard), "Bring on the Lucie" (for it's infection slide guitar riff and amazing vocals), "Scared" (the lyrics and middle-eight are awesome), "I Found Out" for that raw guitar sound and vinegar vocals, and of course "Instant Karma" is a stone-cold classic...

    TOP 5 LENNON ROCKERS:
    1. Instant Karma
    2. Scared
    3. Bring on the Lucie (Freeda People)
    4. I Found Out
    5. Meat City

    He seemed to get most of his angsty/angry guitar playing out of his system on Yoko records.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
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  7. mbleicher1

    mbleicher1 Tube Amp Curmudgeon

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    This, exactly this. It's evidently easier to blame one individual for not renouncing all of his possessions than it is for us to collectively try to do the things described in the songs. Which is why we're not making any progress.

    Anyway, Imagine-the-album is, I think, overrated. It's So Hard and I Don't Wanna Be A Soldier are rather dreary midtempo filler, and How Do You Sleep is also dreary and midtempo, as well as being embarrassingly spiteful. Crippled Inside, How, and Oh My Love are better, but none of them are gold-standard Lennon. It's really the title track, Jealous Guy, Gimme Some Truth, and the shouldn't-be-this-catchy-but-it-is Oh Yoko. I think the record's stature is large because John really didn't put out many great solo albums, so the ones with no offense songs, several solid ones, and a couple classics get elevated. But that's the story with Beatle solo albums in general.
     
  8. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Yes. good take. Some people just seem hardwired to go on a political rant no matter what the subject, so discussing "Imagine" was always going to be manna from heaven for them.
     
  9. Mr. Pleasant

    Mr. Pleasant Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Not sure why you get so upset about an overtly political song being discussed in the same political terms laid out in the song. How else can the meaning of the song be discussed? The writer of the song clearly defined its meaning and yet discussing that meaning is forbidden? It's not like it was a love song that was being discussed. I guess some people are just hardwired to be disagreeable and get upset no matter what the subject. Anyways, carry on.
     
  10. A bit overrated. It is a great song, but he's recorded lots of better songs both as a solo artist and with the Beatles.
     
  11. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    I'm guess just hardwired to follow the rules of the forum. Anyway, my initial comment wasn't aimed at you because you don't come across to me as one of the people it was aimed at.
     
  12. Wright

    Wright Forum Resident

    See, this is where I disagree with you. Maybe it's a US/Canadian difference, since you don't have a revolution in your history.

    Thanks - I guess I learned something from your perspective too, because I didn't realize this song rubbed people the wrong way. I've only heard it being derided for being maudlin before.
     
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  13. BeatlesObsessive

    BeatlesObsessive The Earl of Sandwich Ness

    Actually... they should probably listen to "Mumbo"... as it's more suitable! Though as craven as this crowd seems worse has happened .. those trampling stories from a few decades back are maddening. But it's all psychology. Put a few dozen more TV's in the back and watch the crowd stream past them. I was working years ago at a huge location with about 200 or 300 yards of open space beyond the registers.... they opened the doors and people came running in at top speed and ran until they were out of breath...no displays no doorbusters just a 250 yard dash into a flourescent lit cement parking lot ....oh THERE'S all the stuff..so they got coffee and sauntered in and perused the aisles like it was Barnes and Noble.

    Look at all those instapots!!!! Shouldn't the soundtrack be Simon& Garfunkel's 7 O' Clock News/Silent Night with a slo mo visual of a mother calmly walking into the view of the camera and discharging a super soaker into the head of a waiting shopper like that famous image from Vietnam
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
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  14. unclefred

    unclefred Coastie with the Moastie

    Location:
    Oregon Coast
    I've always thought it was a nicely composed tune with a nice melody. But hippy lyrics that don't age well as one matures. He has many better songs.
     
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  15. ian christopher

    ian christopher Argentina (in Spirit)

    Location:
    El Centro
    Lennon's melodies to build and resolve tension are at once expected yet completely surprising at the same time.

    His beautiful voice rides those chords like a gentle breeze carrying the loveliest scent one can imagine.

    A perfect song really.
     
  16. Price.pittsburgh

    Price.pittsburgh Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
  17. GimmieSomeTruth

    GimmieSomeTruth Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Antartica
    I gotta disagree here. This was Lennon spreading nihilism and communism. He had been hanging with a lot of left radicals at the time and was still emotionally/spiritually a mess at the time. According to Yoko, this song was indeed intended to spark a though process in peoples minds. Whether Lennon changed his views( i believe he did) on all this by his death is not certain . Though he did seem to be in a different place mentally by 40
     
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  18. Looper007

    Looper007 Bear with me, man, I lost my train of thought

    Location:
    Dublin
    It's deserving of the praise, not my favorite Beatles solo album. George Harrison's All Things Must Pass is still the crowning glory and Wing's Band On The Run are two i have over it. But it's probably Lennon's most enjoyable solo album (Plastic Ono Band is great but it's not a easy listen). Can't stand the title track at all. But Pretty much every other track ranges from Excellent to very good. Have a soft spot of "How", "Oh My Love" and "Oh Yoko". "Gimme Some Truth" and "Jealous Guy" are two of Lennon's greatest songs. It's definitely for me Lennon's last consistent album, after that he had some great moments (Mind Games is his greatest solo song imo) but far too much filler and given half his albums over to Yoko. But his first two solo albums are great.
     
  19. SmellTheHorse

    SmellTheHorse Well-Known Member

    Location:
    USA
    Looper007, your post is the only one I've read in this thread so far. You said you can't stand John Lennon's song "Imagine". I think the song is excellent, but we're all entitled to our opinions, and at least you do like John's music! But for anyone who says they can't stand it and/or that it's overrated (especially for those who dislike JL or The Beatles) I have a theory.

    I haven't yet bought anything from John or the Beatles myself, but this is not out of a lack of respect for them or their music. I point this out to let everyone reading know that I'm not a biased Beatles or John Lennon fan when I state my theory.

    The theory is that it's something else that makes you dislike the song. It's not anything to do with the quality of the song. If someone doesn't like this recording as it is, or just doesn't like John Lennon, then they can think of their favorite artist singing it over the same backing music in place of John's vocal. They can pretend they didn't know John wrote it. I think they will then be touched by the song.

    If John had never written this song, and someone who is already very popular today wrote it instead (not likely, I know!) and then released this song next week, it would go to the top of the charts, and everyone would be calling it a masterpiece.

    With John's version, it certainly is.

    This song is intelligent and full of heart. It's very deserving of any praise it gets. The message in the song is perfectly stated, with a very moving melody and sound, and with a vocal that is honest and beautiful.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
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  20. bob_32_116

    bob_32_116 Forum Flaneur

    Location:
    Perth Australia
    With respect, I think this is a little presumptuous on your part. It seems to be saying that if someone does not like the song, the problem lies with them and not the song. To say "It's not anything to do with the quality of the song" is dismissive of others who have a different opinion from yours. You think "they will then be touched by the song", but I'd say that's just conjecture on your part, and they may well dislike the song no matter who sang or wrote it.
     
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  21. Sorry, you are so far off the mark here.

    I agree, this is a welcome rebuke to the earlier misjudged comment.
     
  22. jwb1231970

    jwb1231970 Ordinary Guy

    Location:
    USA
    Should have had an “overplayed “ option
     
  23. Vaughan

    Vaughan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex, UK
    Overrated. It's got a nice melody, and I like its simple arrangement. The sentiment though is a bit hippy-dippy, and is primarily aimed at those who think Hallmark cards are poetry.

    So the message is just too sweet. However, the tune, the performance, the sound, it's okay. Since a lot of people think it's a masterpiece, it is by default, overrated. IMO.

    It's on the level of say, Peter Gabriel's atrocity Don't Give Up - which nicely punches a hole in the bottom of So.
     
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  24. beatleroadie

    beatleroadie Forum Resident

    Has no one been able to find the Imagine re-release chart numbers or sales figures? I think that could help indicate the album's popularity in 2018.

    Personally, I can take it or leave it. "Crippled Inside" is kind of a gas, "Oh Yoko" has a nice buoyant energy and "Jealous Guy" is a gorgeous melody that deserved a better, less weepy arrangement—the rote apologetic lyrics are weepy enough. Other than those three I really can't get into this album, and 2 of those 3 songs date back to '68! John just didn't have much in the tank in 1971. I used to like "Gimme Some Truth" but man it just drones on so monotonous, it needs a change and a climax to the song that just never comes. It's a good idea that has no beginning, middle or ending. Just flat.
     
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  25. Diamond Star Halo

    Diamond Star Halo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    I agree with all of this. Imagine (the album) isn’t all that great, if we are being objective. Even the standout tracks are somewhat lacking. Jealous Guy somehow manages to be a classic despite the dreary string arrangement, while Gimme Some Truth practically begs for a McCartney middle eight to take things to the next level.
     
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