Is it me or the CS 6006 CD of Black Sabbath is the best version ever ?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Dissidence, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. Dissidence

    Dissidence Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    France
    :D
     
  2. blacksabbathrainbow

    blacksabbathrainbow Sabbnatic

    Location:
    Berlin
    Did you listen to the SACD directly, or to a PCM-rip from SACD? All SACDs, when converted to PCM, have a very low volume level (with about 5 or 6db headroom), for technical reasons to do with the inherent differences between DSD and PCM (see here). If you got a PCM-rip from SACD, and the level is indeed too high rather than (as one should expect) too low, then either something went wrong on the way (maybe someone 'over-corrected' the volume level?), or something is wrong with your playback settings - or I don't know what. My SACD > FLAC-rips had the volume level raised during conversion in order to reduce the headroom, but always left 0.5 db headroom (thanks again to rnanimal for helpful advice). I don't believe I have ever heard anyone say before that any of the Sabbath SACDs had the output level too high. Given that, and the fact that you agree that the SACD has the best detail, I think you shouldn't give up on the SACD yet.
     
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  3. blacksabbathrainbow

    blacksabbathrainbow Sabbnatic

    Location:
    Berlin
    When you're saying that you find the US masters "more musical", are you talking specifically about the Sabbath debut, or about 1970ies Sabbath in general?
     
  4. Dissidence

    Dissidence Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    France
    s/t, MoR and Sabotage.
     
  5. blacksabbathrainbow

    blacksabbathrainbow Sabbnatic

    Location:
    Berlin
    Thanks. I would actually agree only for Wicked World. The 1986 UK Castle CD of Sabotage has the well-known tape damage, but the undamaged songs sound at least as good (musical?) to me as the US WB. And I like the sound of all tracks other than WW much better on the (UK-sourced) SACDs and the 2009 Sanctuary CDs than on any US-release. Anyway, the fact that you like smiley-faced EQ probably explains at least partly the differences in our assessment. :)
     
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  6. Freezerburn

    Freezerburn Don't Dilute The Water, man

    Location:
    Pennsylvania USA
    I extracted the CD layer directly out of the ISO image as WAV files with Foobar and burned CDR.
    When I said the output was too high it was a subjective statement; I prefer the low level early 80's CDs that I can really crank on my system. And personally I always go for the mastering that mimics the original vinyl the closest.
    The SACD does sound very detailed, and in fact very nice. I particularly liked the way they increased the volume of the bell in the title track so it really made its presence known!
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  7. Music_dude

    Music_dude Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    I always found it strange that Warner Brothers (US) would have a better version of this track since they would have just gotten copy tapes sent over from England at the time, no? The original masters would stay in Britain so my assumption was that the 2009 Sanctuary would have had the better source, but apparently not...
     
  8. Dissidence

    Dissidence Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    France
    Yeah, any heavy rock/metal guitarist cuts his mid button to half at least (no more than 6 of 10), and boosts bass (and treble).
    I played bass, drums sometimes. We exchanged our instruments, great memories...
    For MoR, the volume changes (Children Of the Grave mostly) are less perceptible in the US ones.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  9. blacksabbathrainbow

    blacksabbathrainbow Sabbnatic

    Location:
    Berlin
    Thanks. I have never tried that (I chose a much more complicated but transparent process), and I don't know what Foobar is exactly doing 'behind the scenes', but if the outcome sounds like it had higher volume than the Castle CDs, something strange is going on. To me, the SACD sounds better than any LP-rip that I have tested. Anyway, the important thing is that you found your favorite version. :)

    It is strange indeed. Either the master tape was really shipped to the US and remained there (which I guess would be a rather unusual thing to happen, especially without taking a very good tape copy before shipping it, in case something would happen during shipping - and the UK versions of the song sound worse to me than I would expect from even an average 1st gen copy); or a very good tape copy was shipped to the US, and the master tape got lost. I wouldn't be surprised if Meehan had somehow taken it with him, but then the CS releases would likely sound better than they do (and better than the WB releases).
     
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  10. Freezerburn

    Freezerburn Don't Dilute The Water, man

    Location:
    Pennsylvania USA
    I've done it this way many times and always had good results. For instance with SBS SACD the output levels were much lower and sounded like literally no EQ was applied.

    I'm sure Foobar worked correctly, it is a bit louder but the waveform looks completely normal to me.
    The amplitude is just a bit higher, for the ST compared to the Castle. There may be a better way of doing it, but this is very simple and I'm quite happy with the results.
     
  11. tlake6659

    tlake6659 Forum Resident

    Location:
    NJ
    As long as there is no clipping and no haircuts on the waveform then it should be OK.

    The original Castle is just mastered at a lower volume but once volume matched they should have the same output level/dynamic range.
     
  12. Freezerburn

    Freezerburn Don't Dilute The Water, man

    Location:
    Pennsylvania USA
    No, I have looked at 100s of waveforms. There is no clipping or haircuts, like you see on all the garbage remasters that are the current "standard". :laugh:
     
  13. Freezerburn

    Freezerburn Don't Dilute The Water, man

    Location:
    Pennsylvania USA
    I would have to pull both versions into Foobar to verify that. They may be the same, but from listening to a few songs and observing the waveforms, I think the SACD is louder. I need to dig a little deeper.
    Keep in mind I deemphed the Castle before burning to CD.
     
  14. Anthrax

    Anthrax Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    My first CD of this album was the '96 Castle. I lived with it for a number of years, it was okay but nothing to write home about. Then I got the 2009 deluxe and thought it was better, but not by much. In between I got an old Castle and that was always my go-to... until I tried a de-emphasised copy of CS 6006-2 - my favourite ever since. The title track blows me away on that version every time.


    Oh, how very interesting! Thanks for that info.
     
  15. Anthrax

    Anthrax Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    How do we know this? (Genuine question, not looking to argue.)
     
  16. Anthrax

    Anthrax Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    :laugh:
     
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  17. Dissidence

    Dissidence Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    France
    It has the more "musical" UK sound. So, I pressume this is a flat transfert.
    But I don't listen often to the UK masters based CDs, SA, HDs (Ten Years War).
    Beware, the Teichiku TECP-23892 is more like a mix of the UK and US sounds.
     
  18. Anthrax

    Anthrax Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    Gotcha. Thanks!
     
  19. Neilson77

    Neilson77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nottingham UK
    Hmm, interesting. I always thought most people on here rated the UK 1st pressing vinyl as the best. I have all 8 of the 2016 deluxe edition CDs and all 8 UK 1st pressings on vinyl. I like the US Rhino of the S/T mastered by Ron Mcmaster which doesn't get much love around here, too bright for others apparently. I don't like the Chris Bellman Vol. 4 that many people rave about on here. To me it sounds muddy and veiled. I prefer the UK porky, supposedly has mid range boost but i think it has clarity and punch that no other mastering i've heard of Vol. 4 does. I think the Bellman Rhino is similar to the 2009 CD remaster. More of a sludgey, muddy sound.
     
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  20. blacksabbathrainbow

    blacksabbathrainbow Sabbnatic

    Location:
    Berlin
    From what I've read here, I believe your assessment is still correct.
     
  21. blacksabbathrainbow

    blacksabbathrainbow Sabbnatic

    Location:
    Berlin
    It is not clear if the 2012 remasters used for most online hi-res releases of the first 8 Sabbath albums (2014HDtracks, 2017 TYW, both share the same mastering) are all from UK master tapes. Wicked World sounds good, as on the US tapes, and Pearce mentioned having selected the best-sounding of multiple tapes. Given that the 2012 mastering seems to be the first that has been released in both Europe and America, I think some kind of (formerly impossible) collaboration between Universal and WB is likely in this case. But of course we don't know.
     
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  22. Dissidence

    Dissidence Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    France
    This one sounds good to me :
    Black Sabbath - The Complete Albums 1970-1978
    (And US tracklisting)

    On the Ten Years War boxset (UK tracklisting), just an example : Planet Caravan is way too loud.
    Noise for lots of songs too...
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  23. Omnio

    Omnio _ _ _ ____ ____ _ _ _

    Location:
    L.A.
    Not sure if someone heard the 2015 HSE-37001 japanese edition yet of the self titled album? I'm lead to believe that it is a unique remaster...

    [​IMG]
     
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  24. blacksabbathrainbow

    blacksabbathrainbow Sabbnatic

    Location:
    Berlin
    Yes, that's the HDtracks US version I referred to. The mastering used for it is the same that was originally created for the following LP box, released in the UK with UK tracklist for the s/t (and was later re-used for the US 2016 CDs and the UK 2017 Ten Year War releases):
    Black Sabbath - The Vinyl Collection 1970-1978

    These releases are simply mastered too bright. The tapes used for them were mostly rather good.
     
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  25. Dissidence

    Dissidence Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    France
    Hmm, great find !
    Is it very loud, brickwalled ?
     

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