Is it true that you should wait 24-hours before re-playing a record?

Just remember, never stick your elbow out the window of a moving car.

 

I read that the conical stylus runs the coolest because of it's higher mass according to Bob Fulton. Also read that the VanDenHull runs the coolest because he measured it directly with a thermistor. Unfortunately it's one of the things no one really cares about anymore except for a few record collectors. There are lots of things modern science could tell us about record playback no money for R&D.

 

At least, I’d go 36 hours to be safe. You don’t want to create a vortex.

 

Vinyl really isn’t for nervous, easily-scared ppl, now is it?

Yeesh.
.

 

In my day we called this the '24 hour snapbacks' - exceeding the elasticity of the vinyl.

I wouldn't play a favorite song a dozen or more times in a row. But other than that I wouldn't worry about it.

 

my money doesnt grow on trees

 

The answer is no. Honest

 

The shady chap that sold me my Turntable told me the 3 rules.

1) Do not expose it to bright lights
2) Dont get it wet
3) And no matter how much it begs, do not feed it after midnight.

Or was that for the Mogwai? I get confused sometimes


I've never heard of a 24hr rule, sounds complete cobblers to me.

 

I remember when I used to play my vinyl Barry White album, my whole audio apparatus used to steam!

 

Yes, of course. If it’s Groundhog Day...

 

I agree with the concept that heat from small contact point generates enough friction to temporary affect the groove wall- in part because I can see the results on the stylus sometimes under magnification- what appears to be burnt on crud. The question, to me, is how significant and long lasting any sort of groove displacement is from this process that might require a period of "recovery."
I also think you are right to look at older sources, where the issue might have been addressed when vinyl playback was mainstream; I can try to go through the AES papers at some point (there were some good ones back in the day when the majors funded research).
I also think it is a legitimate question.
As a matter of practice, I don't stylus drop in the middle of tracks to avoid creating clicks- slightly different point- not gouging the grooves- but same concern;
And, coming from someone who is new to the medium, not only a good question, but one where we might want to extend a little courtesy, even if there isn't a good answer or the answer is 'no.'

Quick search of AES archive- you can do it too, yielded several relevant hits, including this one:
An Experimental Study of Groove Deformation in Phonograph Records

Groove deformation has been analyzed in the literature primarily in terms of classical elasticity theory, which is based on assumptions that are not appropriate for stylus-groove contact. To determine the actual deformation-force relations, complex groove impedances have been measured as a function of tracking force, groove speed, etc. The results obtained are contrasted with classical predictions.

Author: White, James V.
Affiliation: Acoustics Research Laboratory, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA
JAES Volume 18 Issue 5 pp. 497-506; October 1970


I will try to pull it later; my membership credentials are out of date (and I couldn't post the full paper here anyway- it's locked to subscribers. But, I'll try to read it).

 

Several years ago I accidently let a record play for two weeks. The lead out return bump/intersection was pulverized. I replaced the stylus. So, yes, it appears some damage can indeed occur if the stylus is not lifted from the lead out groove before it hits return intersection.

 

Thanks, I don't have the book anymore but I remember now, this is where I read about stylus friction and heat for the first time.

As I wrote before, I believe that there is some truth to this. It seems that the 24 hours rule is totally arbitrary, but I would want to wait a little bit, like half an hour or so, before I play a record twice.

 

Anyone who would want to play the same record twice in 24hrs.....should get more records!

 

Can't be or my original copy of Close to the Edge would be unplayable?

 

There is actually a considerable amount of literature around this subject, which also included investigation of optical scanning as a method of retrieving information from grooved media, e.g., IRENE, a system some of you are familiar with (I saw it at the LOC archive in Culpeper, Va, and wrote a little about it), noise abatement through wet play (a subject that was apparently addressed by Bruce Maier in his work in developing the ubiquitous Discwasher), and a pile of papers on such diverse topics as lubricants, stylus shapes and minimization of distortion.
I'll try to sort through some of it when I re-access the AES archive through the pay wall. I was also in touch with Bruce Maier last week on a different subject and can take it up with him when we talk again.
In the meantime, one of the publicly accessible sites that ultimately dismisses groove deformation as an issue had this to say:
"Professional estimates for the stylus surface temperature during playback are 300-500 °F. Obviously, the temperature of the record is at or close to room temperature except at the stylus contact point - otherwise the record would completely melt. Back-to-back playback will introduce slightly more distortion than a fresh play. This is believed to be a temporary effect and goes away after approx. 10 minutes.

Repeated playback (no matter what the timeframe) carries the risk of permanent damage. Obviously, records are observed to wear out with repeated play. No published evidence exists of back-to-back playback causing any more permanent damage than if repeated plays are separated by any longer period of time."

Myths (Vinyl) - Hydrogenaudio Knowledgebase

The literature, which is substantial, is not cited directly for above conclusion, but there was a lot of attention paid to it back in the day, although admittedly driven in part by companies whose research was aimed at supporting commercial products to ameliorate problems or perceived effects.
I guess my take-away is that it is a subject that was sufficiently worthy of attention at the time to merit more than an offhand dismissal.

 

Another Beatles' thread

 

I have records that I've only played once in 24+ years. But not because I'm worried about wear.

 

This study states no heating to soften records. Play 10 times a day if you wish.

Subsequent to posting my calculations on heating of vinyl groove walls & stylus, I found a method to validate the friction coefficient used, which had been taken from Yosh's JVC figures. I posted that validation here viewtopic.php?t=22590&start=13. On that basis, I remain convinced there is not enough energy available to heat vinyl/stylus significantly. It remains on my list of things to do to attach a tiny thermocouple to stylus shank and validate prediction of low temp rise in stylus. Actually Klaus, I predict vinyl temp rise, such as it is, is inversely proportional to stylus contact height, not area. Line contact stylii would have kower temp rise.

As to elastic deformation, I also posted calculations here, can't immediately find that post. Conclusion is that dynamic vinyl deformation must be very small, based on maximum energy available (from friction), and therefore maximum work done in compressing vinyl material. Validated by considering spring constant of vinyl, and the resonant system with insufficient time to compress (above resonance). Lastly, harmonic distortion would be dire even with relatively small compression, but it isn't.

 

Temperature from friction is NOT the issue. The issue is elastic deformation. When the groove is tracked by the stylus, it is actually temporarily deformed and then it snaps back to its original position. But, this snapping back is, at least for a while, not complete. When elastic material is deformed, it gets harder and more brittle. The concern is that, when the material is still deformed, whether further applied force will cause the material to exceed its elastic limits which could cause the material to crack and come off in tiny chunks.

I recall that some observation showed that it could take as long as 24 hours for the vinyl to be fully restored to its original shape after deformation, but, I also recall that experiments showed that no damage resulted from playing records repeatedly after only a short interval of rest. In other words, the problem with short rest was theoretical, but not observed.

 

My guess is that the time for being able to melt any vinyl is far too short. And it´s not really melting that is the first concern, it´s the Glass Transition temp. Also the diamond is tremendously good at leading away the heat energy from the vinyl.

As for deformation I believe that depending on how demanding the info is on the record, it´s very likely that some spots is permenantly deformed as soon as the record is played. Where some spots never get deformed at all. Remember it´s the normal force at the groove that is driving and accelerating the needle.

 

Good point.

 

If you really don't want to ruin them, the only way is not to listen to them

 

same with shoes, but i wouldnt want to intentionally walk in puddles of mud

 

a. If it needed 24 hours to 'recover' then the record would be hot after it was played.
b. If the grooves/vinyl deformed that much it wouldn't sound good at all.
3. I like Bip Bop.