Is Steve Guttenberg BS’ing Audiophiles About Their Systems?

(Btw & sidenote… I’m not slamming Steve, just disagreeing with him some. He actually seems like a really nice guy. And, I only used “BS’ing” in the thread title because Steve used it in the title of his video).

Okay, I think most ppl here have seen this thread and video by now:

Are audiophiles BS-ing themselves about sound ?

Steve’s vid is interesting, if nothing else. In it, he,

1– Wants to give all us audiophiles a “reality check” (his words) as to how our systems really sound NOTHING like live music, and AREN’T really getting any better or much closer to that goal, despite our best efforts.

2– Maintains that different technologies (most tubes, electrostatic speakers, class A, point-source, etc. etc.) mostly only sound ‘different’, and not ‘better’ or closer to live music. In fact, most components in general aren’t really better-sounding, just ‘different’.

3– Nearly all musicians aren’t audiophiles, because they deeply know what real music sounds like, and that a home system just can’t compare.

Hnmm, okay. Allow me to respond briefly, in reverse order. YMMV.

3– Most musicians aren’t audiophiles? Okay. Here’s a list of musicians and composers who use ATC speakers… a professional/audiophile product:

• Todd Terje
• Mark Knopfler
• Lenny Kravitz
• Ryan Tedder
• Eric Johnson
• Skin
• Deep Forest
• Zac Brown Band
• Calvin Harris
• Clint Black
• Martina McBride
• Pink Floyd
• Ian Anderson
• Les Rythmes Digitales/The Thin White Duke/Jacques Lu Cont
• Enya
• Tom Petty
• Roger Waters
• Manfred Mann
• Beck
• Daniel Bedingfield
• The Rolling Stones
• Dhani Harrison
• Kate Bush
• Lou Reed
• Jack White
• Rick Springfield
• Ziggy Marley
• Ray LaMontagne
• Okan Ersan
• Coldplay
• James Newton Howard
• Diana Krall
• Joe Satriani
• The Killers
• Sting
• Jon Kennedy
• David Gilmour
• Mark Ronson
• Tom Rowlands
• Omar Hakim
• John Powell
• Buddy Miller

If musicians are seldom audiophiles, and if things like monitor speakers are inherently pathetic at replicating live music, why then do so many top professional musicians use (and even own) what some of us audiophiles consider to be really good audiophile/professional speakers? Shouldn’t it not matter, since it’s all crap anyway, especially to the ears of professional musicians?

Oh, and what about those magazine spreads where you see a popular musician posing next to (and gushing) about their high-end home systems? Shouldn’t those like not exist? So very, very odd, yes?

2– If nearly all components merely sound ‘different’ and not better… then what the hell have you been doing for the past umpteen years reviewing audio components, Steve? Have you been doing your part to lead us all astray from the untouchable pinnacle that is live music? And is this vid your penance? LOL.

1– No DUH live music sounds a lot better than most home systems’ ability to reproduce it. Tens shocked! If that’s a ‘reality check’, I want a less Captain Obvious-y one.

But y’know, what if,

a) Many of us audiophiles have at least some idea of what live music sounds like, what instruments and voices should sound like, and we know that that typical entry-level big-box-store system that we’re supposed to settle for is just having a sad, sad go at it.

b) Therefore, those of us who are aware enough to know and/or feel this (aka not the ‘non-audiophiles’ who are ‘happy with anything’ you describe in the vid) are just trying to get as close to live as we reasonably can, yes? Is this not a logical goal?

And, yes Steve, actually some components and technologies CAN help with this… feel proud, as while this renders some of your commentary in the vid wrong/inaccurate/overstated, it does also mean that you haven’t wasted the last decade or two of your life.

c) Curveball… some of us aren’t even chasing the sound of live, unamplified music, for the most part. Really.

What is rock, with its mostly amplified instruments and cuts that are built up track by track? What about techno? Electronica? Hip-hop? Most pop nowadays? And on and on. Get the human voice right, sure, but much of the rest has no ‘real/live’ reference to chase. That can be either cool or terrible, depending on where you sit (and maybe on how old you are).

In closing… I think I know what you were trying to say, Steve… high-end audio can be a punishing, time- and cash-consuming merry-go-round that can ultimately bring little satisfaction if one sets their expectations too high and/or unrealistically. And, many if not most of us, already get that. But some don’t, so thanks.

But, in your slightly clumsy attempt to say this, I can’t help but think that it was not so much we audiophiles BS’ing ourselves about sound (your words), but rather at least as much you BS’ing we audiophiles a fair bit about what we know, perceive, and are actually trying to achieve. Hmm.

Peace.

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I don't think he knows what he is doing quite frankly and is all over the map with opinions, usually that everything he reviews is audio nirvanna.
Great list of musicians Cyclone, also the observation that his BS video implies that his entire body of work is meaningless, which it might be.
My question still remains, since most live music is amplified through a PA system, does that comparison to a quality home system change the equation and minimize his BS opinion?
You better believe it does.

 

A lot to unpack there. Personally I think he's right on most points. I would also agree the percentage of professional musicians who are also "audiophiles" (in the sense of owning an expensive system) is extremely small. There are probably millions of musicians worldwide it's unlikely the vast majority can afford big hi fi rigs and have the living space for one.

 

He right is a lot of ways. True audiophiles don’t really look for their systems to sound like “live music” that’s not really the goal. The objectives are sound stage, separation, depth, backgrounds etc. With components it’s build quality, format, type of sound ie: tubes vs ss. Some audiophiles also think it’s more about listening to their system rather than listening to music, meaning the music is just a vehicle and secondary. I’m not in that camp I agree with McIntosh’s motto “For the love of music.” So in reality, he is kinda of right, but we are all different and enjoying this hobby a little differently. The fundamentals are the same however and I understand completely what you are saying but try to examine what’s important to you in this hobby and I think you’ll see that’s more in line with these fundamentals. It’s also ok to try to achieve what you consider to be a “live” sound because that’s the type of sound you prefer. And if that sounds better to you then you should enjoy what’s attracting you to this hobby. Just my opinion as a seasoned audiophile, you bring up some good points!

 

He recently acknowledged that most watching his podcast do so for entertainment and will likely never purchase any of the gear he reviews. In my case that’s true, but along the way I may learn a thing or two and that’s always welcome!

In the other thread I commented on how I find most live shows I’ve attended lacking in sound quality, and I’ve attended a lot of concerts since I first started at age 13. However, I can overlook those deficiencies because the show isn’t really about the sonic qualities, it’s about being there with the artist you like and feeling the live energy of the performance shared throughout the crowd.

At home, where I control things I take great pleasure from good sound, and have arrived at a place where I don’t feel a need for any major changes, though a small tweak here and there is always fun. And I continue to read posts in this Forum and learn, it’s all good, no BS!

 

I think that depends very much on what kind(s) of music you’re most into.
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Yes, however the point is that’s a “type” of music and a “type” of sound and as audiophiles we’re not all trying to achieve a “ live” sound with things that have been recorded in a studio, and often times a not even at the same time, notwithstanding the mastering of the recording. It’s about the fundamentals of how we listen to the music.[/QUOTE]

 

Cyclone,you mention ATC speakers, which I've never heard of. That's an impressive list of music industry people who claim to own them but, they can afford to. Most musicians I know don't have that kind of spare dough. Price range on ATC seem to go from $1k to 20+. That list would be more infomative if it had model listed next to music persons name.

The working musicians I know,including teachers, are definitely not audiophiles. I'd say ,wow, 90% are not.

 

So Steve, what do you really think?

 

my post above comes off a little harsh, SG is a nice engaging dude, ever since CNET it's his industry serving spiel I am not a fan of.

 

Incidentally, just because someone is wealthy enough to afford the "best" of anything and everything (including an expensive hi fi system) doesn't necessarily make them an "audiophile" by correct definition of the term, a/k/a "audio enthusiast", ie: one interested in the science of music reproduction. In fact, ownership of a system is not even necessary to be an audiophile.

 

Touchdown!

Now you mention a lot of pro musicians. Let me add this...a friend of mine has been making music for 35 years (making albums, live performances, mixing and producing his own music,...). He likes good sound and has a pretty good system (mostly handed down gear from me ) but is not an audiophile...
When he visited my place last time to hear a first mix of his last album on my system, one of the things he mentioned was how 'live' my system sounded. So, there you go Steve, eat that!

 

I would agree that most musicians I have known, from local guys to RRHOF'mers, are not really audiophiles. Sometimes a publicity shot of a musician will show them in front of a kick ass stereo system or something but it's hard to know if that is really a posed shot or what. There are folks like Paul Mac and Henry Rollins and Lenny Kravitz that seem to legitimately have a passion for sound but I'd agree that they would be an exception.

I don't agree with Steve G that it's because musicians know what music sounds like and therefore don't bother with audiophile gear.

I'd say it's more because most musicians are surrounded by music all the time, they are working in studios or practicing or writing or on the road touring most of the time. It would be an exception for say, a surgeon who is in brain surgery 80 hours a week to go home and relax by performing a little brain surgery in their downtime. I didn't really have any interest in "listening" to music myself until I had gotten out of the business completely and was looking for a way to appreciate music again.

 

They don’t advertise much, if any. They don’t have to.

As the saying goes, life is not always fair.

You might be surprised. Audiophiles are not always easily identifiable in advance.

Case in point: Me and some friends were having a ‘game night’, aka playing board games (Puerto Rico was the current favorite).

The girlfriend of a friend of a friend was there, and she was a young music teacher. And she obviously didn’t have the income to have some sort of ‘killer home system’ or the like, unless she had a trust fund or a drug lord side hustle I didn’t know about.

Anyhoo, while we played, I had some music going off of iTunes on my laptop (the game was at my friends’ house, not mine).

Said music teacher started grimacing after awhile, as if in pain.

She then finally stood up, looked at me, and said, “May I?”. And then marched over to my laptop, and changed the EQ setting to ‘Small Speakers’. Now notably happier, she was then able to play in peace.

If that’s not an audiophile, I am unsure of what is.
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If she adjusted the volume, would that make her an audiophile too?

Sorry but a casual action to make something more tolerable/enjoyable isn't what makes one an audiophile as I defined in reply 11 above.

 

I’m pretty sure she’s an audiophile in the ways that matter. You are free to believe otherwise, of course.
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Musicians who are audiophiles?

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Not a matter of belief. It's a matter of definition.

 

He’s onto something.

Audio component manufacturers are in business to sell equipment. Marketing that means they have to convince you that what you presently have is no good and what they sell is better. And what they made last year is no good, and what they offer this year is even better.

Once you get your system quality up to a certain point there may not be such a thing as better, rather it’s just different.

As far as musicians go, most (not all) are more concerned with the ‘vibe’ rather than some elusive audiophile experience. Otherwise, how could you explain The Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan?

 

I’m going to stop responding, on account of not caring very much.
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Bingo. And besides, while I agree that ATC speakers sound fantastic, giving a pair of them to Mark Knopfler so you can say Mark Knopfler loves ATC speakers is pretty fantastic marketing. Also, in the list it says "Pink Floyd"... is that every, single member? Or just Mr Floyd?

 

Norah Jones seems to like her Leben.



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They're all full of ****. Guttenburg, Andrew Robinson, Cheap Audio Man, Jay, etc. The only YouTube channels who had any mild objectivity were the dude who did cartridge listening tests and the HiFiNews (or however it's spelled) guy who did a bunch of speaker and cartridge tests. Both of those are defunct.

I think watching these hi-fi influencers (let's call them what they are) can help shed light on the basics of a product, but I don't think they should be viewed as anything but supplements to actual, in-person demos/auditions.

 

Kinda on topic... Tom Petty would take a cassette of his latest recording out to a regular car and listen to it on a factory car stereo so he could know what the average Joe was going to be hearing, and then remaster accordingly.

 

I like the Audiophilliac.... I met Steve years ago at one of the NYC shows. A genuinely nice guy who's passion for all things audio is infectious